The Chevrolet Volt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Ed @ Jan 14 2007, 12:33 PM) [snapback]375554[/snapback]</div>

The EV1 was an exception to the rule, though it hardly counted, and was hand-built by a very small crew of dedicated engineers.

This just in:
Bob Lutz: I personally did not see the movie. I continue to believe the allegations made in the movie were patently ridiculous . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16580894/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 14 2007, 08:41 PM) [snapback]375667[/snapback]</div>

Remember the 80's Nova? Toyota gave GM the powertrain and GM still screwed up the car. Even if it's hand-built by a very small crew of dedicated engineers GM will still screw it up. They can't help themselves. It's just what they do. GM's business and manufacturing philosophy has remained unchanged since it's inception. GM is going down the drain fast and they will continue to cut every corner possible to save a buck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 14 2007, 12:59 AM) [snapback]375396[/snapback]</div>

What's practical for Brazil, is NOT to be viewed as any kind of standard. This is the country that deliberatly destroys / burns over 20,000 square miles of rain forest per year, so it can raise / export beef. Similarly, Brazil deforests for cane, soya, etc. But rain forest soil is so poor, you have to keep burning clear, more and more rain forest ... heck ... why bother dumping chemicle fertilizer into poor soil if there's tons of virgin rain forest land you can wipe clear. Such a deal.

 

GM is in a tough spot, after years of selling the racing on the road cars, now they have to get at least a little green. I will put a Ponycar front end on it so customers can be "proud" of their car. I am happy to drive my Prius now and enjoy the benefits of my high performance car. I will have to dream about the Volt that GM may one day build. Then I could buy one and dream about being a young good looking racer. A.k.a a poser.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 12 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]374755[/snapback]</div>

Where did you get your numbers for the jeep?

From the EPA:
Wrangler, 3.8L, manual, 17/19 - auto, 16/19
FJ Cruiser, 4L, auto, 17/21 - manual, 16/19(to be fair, that's for the full time 4WD drive train)
Xterra, 4L, auto, 16/21 - manual, 17/21

They all got the same pollution score. The numbers for the jeep apply to the 4 door model. The FJ is the only one to require premium.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShellyT @ Jan 18 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]377170[/snapback]</div>

I agree, not my choice of vehicles. I got pulled into a malorn thing, and I'm trying to be better, so I'm really not wanting to debate the goodness of an FJ compared to a Wrangler. Seriously. Like Earl, I'm trying to be a better person, and avoid flamebait.

Anyway, the MPG numbers were not an asspull, I was trying to compare similar vehicles with roughly the same size engine, automatic and 4wd since I figure that's the most poplular options. The MPG numbers were from Edmunds, '07 Jeeps have no mileage data yet, so it's for an '06 Wrangler Sport with the six cylinder, 4WD and automatic:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/jeep/wrang...2394/specs.html

For the FJ, same site, the 4WD automatic model:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/toyota/fjc...8146/specs.html

Thanks for the EPA numbers, looks like a step in the right direction with the 07 Jeeps.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Ed @ Jan 14 2007, 11:05 PM) [snapback]375725[/snapback]</div>

Don't look now but here comes GM! The leading automobile company in the world! No if Ford and DCX can get jump started!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/17/business/gm.php

 

And speaking of the FJ Cruiser, top of the list

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/...bles/index.html

That Smart ForTwo looks interesting, too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hampdenwireless @ Jan 7 2007, 11:43 AM) [snapback]372067[/snapback]</div>

Yes, and an electrical engineer (who does not feel like looking up actual numbers and doing calculation now) I have to agree. This is the first electric hybrid I have seen spoken of in a long time. In fact, the last electric hybrid I remember was the Rosen Power Train system around 1997 (as opposed to a parallel hybrid where the engine provides mechanical power).

It typically only takes 5-12 horsepower to actually keep a car driving down the road (plus 5HP for A/C). The genius of an electric hybrid is that you can harness a generator designed to be most efficient for making making electricity at 15HP. Thus a tiny 25 HP engine operating in its most efficient speed all the time can make electricity extremely efficiently at very close the same rate it is used. When you consider that your batteries or ultra-capacitor bank provide a "buffer" to ensure that the engine only operates in this ideal range, you can obtain the equivalent of 100MPG+ actual performance. Remember, the ICE is not inherently inefficient, it is inefficient as a device to provide 12HP 98% of the time and 250HP 2% of the time. An electric motor way outperforms ICE, and for the .2% of the time you want 500HP, you have a large battery bank to provide it.

 

Last summer I looked at Honda generators for camping. They could run for hours under full load on 1gal of gas! The military is developing a new APC that uses an electric motor at each wheel to save internal space and be quiet, smoke free. Bob Lutz is fighting with his engineers to make a vehicle that runs on electric only for the first 40mi even though it may not be the most efficent way to operate an ICE/electric hybrid! Why not get rid of Lutz and use his salary to buy solar and wind electric generating equipment for GM manufacturing plants each year.

 

There are several topics mentioned here... I am trying to give some input.

About Toyota vs GM and Greenness.
Basically the mileage over all cars sold in one country are strongly based on the gasoline prices.
USA: Gas Guzzlers sell well. Prices of Gas are very low. 2 dollars for a 3.78 liters?
Europe: I live in switzerland and I have seen 2 pickups so far (and they were both waiting to be sold). Most people drive Sedans here, with or without hatchbacks. We pay around 1.30 Dollars for a liter, so about 5 dollars for a gallon.
Japan: They may have even higher prices, plus they have very crowded cities like Tokyo. So dont expect much people to have a big, fuel guzzling car over there.
So to decide if GM or toyota is, everything included, greener I would have to go with Toyota. Simply because they not only sell cars in America, but mostly europe and japan where cars with higher efficiences are more asked for. Sure, GM also sells all over the world but I bet my nice person they sell most of their stuff in america.
I was once comparing the american toyota site (toyota.com) with the swiss site (www.toyota.ch). In the american version they were praising vehicles like sequoias (never heard of) and tundras (not for sale here either), in switzerland toyota was advertising the yaris (big seller around here).
So a company is about as green as their target market (basic economic theory).

About E85:
I generally think its a bad idea to have world hunger problems and starting to use farmers to grow fuel.
Most promising renewable energy is still electricity. Unlike the US we dont have any coal energy plants, in switzerland (maybe an exception) we use 60% Water and 40% nuclear energy. But even germany is trying to get off nuclear and provide more electricity with truely replenishable energy sources (wind, water, solar etc).

About the whole battery discussion, whether they are ready or not: I honestly dont know. I know Li-Ion isnt ready yet (or at least the price is still too extreme), and I know that Nickel is becoming more and more scarce.

Last but not least about the Volt: It is a good concept. As someone pointed out somewhere, a ICE that runs on the same rpm all the time has much bigger efficiency than one that has to develop horsepower and torque over all rpm levels. However, efficiency of transforming to electricity, storing it into a battery etc may put that down. But as long as they dont have the battery, they got nothing. Also I have already read somewhere about an EV with onboard generator. Still, an EV with an outside generator would still make more sense. Carrying around an ICE for 10% of the cases doesnt make sense.
If they develop the battery for the volt, lets see what the 5th generation prius can achieve with that.

Edit:
For example the Smart was introduced in Europe around 1998. I have seen a lot of those, companies buy them often for 1 man transportation. Saves a lot of space and fuel. I didnt know that this very unique vehicle is unknown to americans.