The begining of the end of the Prius - Time

A thread titled "The begining of the end of the Prius" needs a little perspective:
Toyota Prius Owners Are Bad Drivers, Worse For Speeding Tickets Than Corvette Owners


What is wrong with this picture?

They are a 'great' source about the Prius:

• Toyota Recall: Brake Design Flaw Hits 242,000 Gas-Electric Vehicles
  
• Toyota Prius Recall: 1.9 Million Hybrids Affected By Software Defect

So now we know where hybrid skeptic writers end up. FYI, the comments are hilarious.

Bob Wilson

 

Look ma, it's a RWD Prius

Ha, article link says lady steals a Burmese Python, then article says it's a Ball Python.....
big difference between the two, like about 10 ft full grown.
Ball Python: The ubiquitous pet snake.
Burmese Python, not so much.

 

What is wrong with this picture?

I don't see a driver, is it on fire?

 

I figured they jacked the car under the rear hub; spun up the tire; started the video camera, and; lit the smoke pot. Then they posted the one frame from the video. They forgot the driver and to obscure the license plate.

Still clever.

Bob Wilson

 

I'm actually more excited that gas prices have been going down, since that cuts down even more on my fuel expenses, and I can still trust the technology that goes into the hybrids.

If nothing else, hybrids will probably have a nice resale value in 5-10 years when gas prices go back through the roof.

 

Um .... the body is on backwards? .... and it's wheel sensors are disconected?

 

There are small lies, big lies and than there is statistic.

That study is faulty on many levels, and then it is all the matter of perspective: avg Prius driver drives alot more then Viper owner. Co-worker used to have both for about the same period of time (6 years) put 205K on Prius, and less than 30 on Viper.

Unfortunately these "studies" are used to set insurance rates. Which is way Prius C rates are ridiculously high.

 

Does the Toyota Prius still matter?

 

FuelEconomy.gov still reveals only a single conventional non-hybrid with 40+ MPG: Mitsubishi Mirage, 1.2L CVT, right on that 40 MPG threshold.

That doesn't make for a very wide selection of non-plug-in alternatives.

 

I just banked 54 mpg actual yesterday. Lifetime is 52.
There are really not any conventionals that get 40 combined.

 

+1

from your link.

Maybe this management target is why the gen IV prius and phv have fallen so far behind in schedule. I hope manufacturing and engineering haven't fallen into think this, and do a good job on improving the "current" toyota halo. The mirai misses on a number of counts as a green or a technology halo.

 

What r they smoking? Twice they mentioned selling hybrids for 25 years. Even counting 1997 Prius launch in Japan, Prius has only sold for 18 years. Ah, 18, 25, all the same.

 

Toyota needs at least two and a half decades for the mirai, and they want to pretend it will be as much of a success as the prius, so they have to make it look like the prius took longer. Yeah, I didn't catch that the first time, but the prius was pretty successful in 2007, after less than a decade. That is when it peaked in the US.

 

I think ninjette you're sitting on gets better.
I was regularly getting 68 from mine when commuted ~10years ago.

IF you mean cars there are 2 coming out this year which can come close or break it: Mazda-2 and Elio. Mazda likely be ~38, and Elio promised 83MPG. Better yet it costs 7K and qualifies for HOV as motorcycle.

 

This is the best crop of currently available.
Compare Side-by-Side
The fit and mazda 3 really do well getting 41 on the hwy with no compromises, city mpg isn't too bad at 30 and 33 but it can't touch a hybrid. The corrola eco gets 42 hwy but probably if you hyper mile either of these two they get better. Then we get a little exotic to get better mpg. The bmw does great with 45 hwy and 32 city, but diesel has more energy and costs more.

Nope for city mpg you go hybrid, but .... each of these cars have things to recommend them. If you are trying to save oil, hybrids don't do much compared to plug-ins So if the argument is less oil, prius better improve the phv.

 

Sad story behind that bike. That's me on the Green Ninja 250, but that bike is not mine. It belongs to the guy just behind me in the red leather pants, Gary J. The super sad story is Gary J died in a solo bike crash on Hwy 9 in May of 2012: His bike lowsided and he and it went over the embankment. I only found out about it a couple months ago as I sold my last bike in 2010. He was very well known in the Bay Area motorcycling community having been a trackday instructor, former club racer and leading so many group rides over the years. There have been memorial rides in his honor also.

 

When you say " the best crop of currently available" you should say in US. (and you missed Mitsu Mirage and Chevy Spark btw)

There are a bunch of small diesels in EU which do better than Prius. I've driven one for 1,500mi in Italy, the same way as I'd drive Prius and averaged ~67MPG. Granted most of the trip was off the autostrade. The speed limit on those 80MPH and everyone drives ~95.

Also the "diesel ... costs more" is mostly true but not in all markets. It runs about the same in CA, or it was on many stations in August, with the price of regular in 4-5$ range.

And honestly I do not believe the argument "less oil - better improve the phv" is a valid one. First of all all gasos can be converted to NG, which would be cheaper and more practical than costly PHV batteries. Second, the $20/mo difference in fuel cost isn't gonna make up for extra payments and insurance, so if you compare Prius C and Mirage the non-hybrid cost of ownership will be significantly lower for young generation; even if you double mileage and bring gas back to $5/gal. This is comparing with regular "C", the PHV will be even worse; you are paying premium to save $50/annual.

Compare Side-by-Side

 

A minor nit, plug-ins are the ultimate 'flex fuel': nuclear, coal, natural gas, wind, solar, ethanol, tidal, or hydro.

Hummm, I suppose even these:


Bob Wilson

 

It is quite valid, the only question is how much of the Prius market is that group?

The "less oil" part of the market typically is not driven by cost, although may consider that frosting on the cake.

Many of that market are attracted to the flexibility of plugins, as noted by Bob (I know I am). Changing a car's only fuel source from gasoline to natural gas isn't a very good choice. Actually, it is pretty bad considering at least if it is running on diesel you can switch to biodiesel.

Others are in that group for national security or fiscal reasons. NG addresses this, so seeing more choices for them in the market would be nice. Besides Honda, I don't recall seeing many/any. Of course, the better quality of drive, performance and convenience of plugins is tough for NG cars to compete with, so even if the choices were there, I suspect most of that segment of the market would go with plugins.

 

Well it depends on your point of view? From economic point of view plug in and full electric do not make sense. From marketing point of view it is a great opportunity, look how well Tesla is riding a hype.

From geo-political and national security point of view there are much better ways of resolving this. First of all we have enough oil, and if the Keystone XL is build we will have more than enough oil. There reason we are buying oil from "bad" countries, b/c it is cheaper; not b/c we do not have it enough.

The aftermarket propane conversion kit is a few hundred $. And it would be cheaper if you design car for NG in a first place. Discontinued NG Civic maybe exception in small car market, but many municipal buses, refuse removal, deliver trucks run on NG. NG out-competed hybrids in that market. Companies who were offering big truck hybrid powertrains went out of business. And btw the NG density rate is higher than batteries, so you get quick refills and more range for less.