The 1st Volt: Off the Assembly Line Today

Okay, we have firm pricing and fairly detailed specs on the Leaf... hello GM? And what is up with GM's obsession with plastic cladding? People, use chip resistant paint and give us a clean car!

 

GM had over 90 years without needing a goverment bail out. We should give them this one chance. Before now GM treated it's works very well. I wish other companies would do the same. When walmart became about the same size as gm, and had more profits, a person working for them was going to get paid 14$ an hour less at walmart?? And you want end this without them getting one chance? And loose another 1-2 million jobs in the US?

 

It is very difficult to view GM as the 'victim' here. Just give them 'one chance'??
A company that large should be well diversified and be prepared for changes in the market. They essentially had 30 chances, from the late 70s when the oil issue hit them and the US in the face, until they went bankrupt.
The fixed their 'styling/quality' issue for the most part, kudos for them for that. But it took them FAR too long.
They are being drug, kicking and screaming out of the stone age and if they can pull it off, more power to em. I hope they do because I would like them to pay back the taxpayers for the loan we gave them.
I am eager to test drive a Volt, but I am still not betting that I will get a chance too.

 

Over the past few years we've witnessed GM doing the absolute minimum and catering heavily to the guzzler market. That neglect (not offering a choice) for the efficiency market was their decision... one that has already proven to be a poor one.

Now, to make matters worse, Volt was configured without concern for price and absolutely requires a plug. Where's the option for mainstream buyers, those who desire something priced similar to what they would normally purchase?

Also, think about how few Volt will actually be produced. Will we really get minimum mainstream volume (5,000 per month) in the next few years? Looking at how unprofitable the design is and how heavily it depends on tax-credit money, that doesn't look promising.
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Why don't they just pull out the dies for their EV1, start stamping them out, and slap their "new" lithium batteries in it? That would probably be an instant hit.

 

I am waiting to read reviews of the Volt by people more knowledgable than me ...... auto people, not media reporters. But my personal doubts pertain to the cost, and the limited range ... pale compaired to the Leaf, and I cannot understand whyt? The battery pack that we have seen is enormous. I fear the Volt with neither be a good electric, or a good "range extended" vehicle. Whereas, the Leaf seems to have the range, and driving convenience. And, certainly the Prius performs it's design task proficiently.

I like the fact that Nissan in proceeding with confidence and planned assistance, for example providing charging stations, and home docking ports. It appears to be very responsible, and professional.

 

For quite a stretch GM turned into a financial organization, making more profit from GMAC than from auto sales. They made the same reckless decisions as most of the financial organizations, and suffered the same large losses. It isn't only bad automotive decisions that have hurt GM.

Tom

 

off the line today but not available to buy for nearly a year...

 

The Volt absolutely requires a plug in? Why? Is gas no longer available?

 

I think he meant 'absolutely requires a plug in' in order to get exceptional fuel efficiency.
If the Volt is run on gas only, it will probably get around 35mpg? Yes, that is a guess, I have seen guesses between 25 and 50mpg. But if the the volt could get 50mpg in CS mode, why not build a more affordable car without the 600 lbs in batteries (or whatever the weight is) and get 55-65mpg?

 

i think concentrating on what the Volt cant do is probably going to insure that you talk yourself out of buying it (i am NOT in the market for one!)

how about what it can do. its stated that the Volt will do around 25 EV miles. well, in the real world, lets say 20.

well that covers about 20% of commuters now. for those who can plug in at work (should be mandated by federal government!@!) make that 85% which would be all or nearly all EV driving.

 

Actually the stated is 40 miles, of course most think it will be less.

 

See, this lack of hard info on the Volt is just fueling lots of speculation that will ultimately hurt the car if it continues. I notice that Nissan's price and rollout plans have even gotten diehard Volt fans on other sites to begin considering the Leaf as a viable alternative!

 

If my experience of living with a Prius and a small EV for almost four years indicates anything, the Volt will be a marginal success, if that. When making tradeoffs, to have the worst of both possibilities quickly becomes unattractive, especially if it is expensive/complicated.

As Hill suggests many will not accept the poor performance for the limited range improvement offered by the Volt.

For long distance travel the Prius (and most ICE cars) works great. For really short trips, the EV is clearly superior.

To me, the breaking point for the difference is the length of trip required to warm up the Prius ICE. That is the trip for the Prius. Otherwise, I use the EV. Some do not have the flexibility to make that choice.

The Leaf would add to the flexibility of the choice for many people. That is appealing.

The bottom line is getting used to different cars for different purposes. That seems to be hard in anticipation. In real life, I have found this to be much simpler than was anticipated.

I carry an extension cord in my EV just in case the car runs out of electrons and needs a charge. It has never been used.

 

That's a sensible guess, since CAFE standards and such depend upon plugging in to achieve the designated rating.

What I meant was there will no Volt package offered without a plug. Limiting our "choice" to a one-size-fits-all configuration is my big gripe.

Think about it if really did deliver 50 MPG in CS mode. Wouldn't it make sense to expand market reach by offering a serial configuration too?
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I think the bigger problem with goverment loans/bailouts was banks not GM. If you really knew how the bailout with the banks worked i think you would get sick. Gm has promised to pay it back, and this was there first time asking for a bailout, so why can't we give them one chance? Then if they fail GM, it dealers, it's parts makers, and the whole trickle down effect can lay off millions and millions of more americans and you can be happy knowing gm will die.

 

Defining failure is the problem. Failing to make profit and self-sustain business has obvious consequences. What about failing to deliver affordable & responsible vehicles that consumers actually want? How would you quanitify that?

There's a huge difference between getting a "D" grade and earning an "A".

Haven't you noticed how they are lowering expectations, promoting how "impressive" efficiency of 30 MPG is?
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You should REALLY listen to NUMMI | This American Life. It might still be available as a podcast you can subscribe to and easily get to your music player via iTunes Store (or your favorite podcast client). You'll be floored by how broken GM's manufacturing process and relations between plant and HQ and with labor, suppliers were along w/the state of denial or lack of motivation on their part back in the 70s and 80s. They didn't really get it and implement the changes needed until ~2000.

By "before now GM" "works very well"... err... they weren't doing so hot over the years. A few examples: Abstracts: General Motors suffers record $4.45 billion loss for 1991. GM posts record $23.5 billion loss. Daimler posts first loss; sets cuts - Business, general

http://www.freep.com/article/200902...44/As-GM-losses-deepen--bankruptcy-fears-grow

As Car Buyers Steer Clear, GM's Loss Hits $6 Billion - WSJ.com

GM posts $39 billion loss

vs. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/business/worldbusiness/23toyota.html

And yes, Toyota eventually did reported losses. I wish I had a graph of GM's profits and losses every year.

http://cbs3.com/national/steven.rattner.GM.2.1261248.html
http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/21/aut...erpt.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009102104
(written by Rattner):

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I've followed GM for a long time. They made SO many mistakes such as killing the EV1, delivering too little, too late hybrids like the now dead BAS hybrids and ~20 mpg two-modes that go in monstrosity class SUVs, focusing on trucks and SUVs, not making products that people actually wanted w/o having to depend on large incentives, and poo-pooing hybrids as late as 2004 (GM: Hybrid compacts don't make economic, environmental sense - Jan. 6, 2004) when the Prius had been shipping since December 97 in Japan.

Incentives:
Despite cuts, GM still leads incentive spending | detnews.com | The Detroit News - current

Samples from the past:
Edmunds.com Reports True Cost of Incentives: General Motors' Incentives Expense Relatively Low Despite Success of Employee Discount Program
Edmunds.com Reports True Cost of Incentives for December, Reflects on 2006
Big 3 fire up incentives for July 4th - USATODAY.com
GM, Toyota Boost Incentives; Toyota Sets Record - Auto Observer

They were too generous (hence the name "Generous Motors") and partly the unions were to blame. They had crap like "job banks" (see Detroit News: Job Bank programs - 12,000 paid not to work - GM Inside News Forum, yes this was on detnews.com before it got aged off).

I've posted about some of their crazy crap like horribly uneven factory utilization: 8% in one plant vs. 130% in another. The 130% plant is paying overtime. See below, but unfortunately many of the my links are probably dead now.

MY350Z.COM Forums - View Single Post - Does anyone else feel bad for American car companies?
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...s-jobs-truck-suv-production-2.html#post608856
Ho, ho, ho! GM to cut 30,000 jobs, 9 plants by 2008 - TiVo Community Archive2

Exactly!

Yes, the bailouts to the banks and AIG were INSANE and the money was handed out w/few or no questions asked compared to the skewering the auto execs got in front of Congress for far less $.