Featured Tesla recalled over "full self-driving"

**Was the driver even using Autopilot or FSD when the crash happened?

What type of warning does TSS give when a crash is imminent?

 

My last crash where I was driving and not using any assists was partially due to sun in my eyes, partially due to brake lights not contrasting with the red paint on the rear of a pickup I hit, and partially due to my being momentarily distracted by something on the side of the road so when I looked up I failed to detect the pickup was stopped at a point in the road you wouldn't expect. Result one totaled Porsche, no damage beyond a torn off electric connector below the trailer hitch of the truck..

Bob's I-81 trip I could have done in my '19 Rav4 and its driver assists. And I like it that it doesn't change lanes, make turns, select speeds, park itself. Having to do those things myself keeps me awake. It also has conventional controls for all safety critical functions so in an emergency, muscle memory can react without having to hunt for the control. And when I drive my wife's car, the controls are familiar. Knobs and buttons and stalks.

 

A work in progress, Autopilot/FSD has problems that need to be fixed. The navigation system too. In fact, those of us married, divorced, or widowed know well the problems of our current and former partners but realize being with them can be better than not.

There are some who will never accept computer aided driving. Others like me take the good with the bad and adjust to minimize problems that can be addressed or workaround. But I respect the right of the opposing side no matter how wrong they are.

I use Autopilot and FSD at every opportunity. The honorable opposition should respect my choice as I do their decision to avoid automation.

Bob Wilson

 

There are known phantom braking incidents where the car thinks there is an obstacle when there may not be. I have most often seen this when there is a car or motorcycle that may want to come into my lane. As to your speculation that under autopilot or self driving beta, the car will not respond to steering, braking, or accelerator input that would violate the NHTSA regulations and the 4.5 years of experience I have been driving it. Now those mission critical systems could have bugs but those would be reported in those systems as the braking bug was reported in my prius. Nowhere in the release notes of any software has tesla said they are turning these things off. The low number of times this has happened I press the accelerator and I am out of the situation. When the car is doing something I think is dangerous I turn off the automation. It has never stopped me from braking, steering, or accelerating. I understand it will stop you from accelerating sometimes when a collision is imminent but that too can be turned off. Not sure why you would need the code to see what its behavior is. You do know the NHTSA has regulated these things work this way.

Now I will await the NHTSA report to see if somehow they have been slow and implicated the traffic aware cruise control portion, but it really was a faulty accelerator. I really doubt that was the case, but let us await the investigation.

 

Source: Tesla Driver Dies After Ramming Into Firetruck Amid Mass Recall

Law enforcement says it's unclear if the driver was under the influence or if they were using a self-driving feature.​

Source_2: 1 dead, 4 injured after Tesla crashes into Con Fire truck on 680 | abc10.com

Truck 1 from the Contra Costa County Fire Protection District was blocking lanes on Interstate 680 while working on another accident around 3:30 a.m., according to officials.

Officials say they do not know if drugs or alcohol were a factor and have not determined if the Tesla was being operated with any driver assistance or automation activated at the time of the crash.
The crash is still being investigated ​

Bob Wilson

 

Clickbait.
The recall mentioned is the same recall that spawned this thread.
The recall has zero to do with the Tesla striking the back of the fire truck. Which, I believe, was also mentioned earlier in this thread. So, rather than saying “another…” it would have been more correct to say “the same accident…”

 

This is indeed a tragedy. Drivers whether they use autopilot or not should be looking for vehicles blocking lanes. We do not know if the driver was impaired or using autopilot, but they should have stopped.

1 person dies when Tesla hits fire truck on I-680, 4 firefighters injured

Copperas Cove (TX) Fire Truck Hit on Highway 9 for Second Time in a Month
2 fire trucks and a police car were hit within a month on highway 9 in central texas. The cars were not teslas so no one speculated that it was autopilot and the press didn't even cover the make and model.

Firetruck Accident Statistics | Work Zone Barriers Guide.

 

TSS1.0 was the version available for my Prius Prime.

This is what it says; Pre-Collision System with Pedestrian Detection (PCS w/PD) * is designed to help detect a vehicle or pedestrian and provide an audio/visual forward-collision warning under certain circumstances. If you don't react, the system is designed to provide automatic emergency braking.

I've experienced the automatic emergency braking once, when a car pulled out of an alley directly into my path. The car reacted faster than I did. The warning was audible ( a bell or a chime, if I recall correctly) and was accompanied by a big red "BRAKE" graphic on my display. The car stopped well before impact. The "brake" graphic freaks out my wife.

This link is a video overview of the TSS 3.0 version from Toyota.

 

Until it reaches lvel 4 autonomy, it should include a name change. That is pretty much the main problem with "full self driving" tech. It sounds like it offers more than it's capable of, which lowers drivers' guards.

 

it seems the OP can't complain with the statistic that shows how many times safer all the various manufacturers systems operate - & so that relegates them to either complaining/bemoaning its name ... & /or being improved through OTA updates ... lest anone forgets. The thousands of accidents that happened daily aren't an issue .... it's the much less frequent accidents of the systems that must be focused on.

.

 

Moving forward, what I take away from this is a need to avoid Tesla driver aids. I've never been very comfortable with the idea of them (or anyone) running tests on public roads, and to see them hiding behind the idea that the end justifies the means is pretty bad. That's just a little too comic book villain for me.

I like the idea of autonomous driving overall, but if it ever filters down to the cars I buy I'd rather pay for one that had a clean development process.

 

There are similar flaws in my Prius Dynamic CC. When a car turns off the Interstate either the Prius slows to a stop (It doesn't recognize that the car is no longer in my path) or it gets confused and shuts down the Cruise Control (saying no car detected). Both require immediate driver action. You should not expect these systems to be fail safe.

JeffD

PS. My significant other's Subaru Cross Trek's "Eye Sight" behaves better than my Prius

 

The number of accidents, today, is less with the FSD enabled, than without. This has been the case ever since FSD first became available.
The 'tests' were already done off road.
Yes, more data is gathered while onroad. This is ongoing improvements, just as other car companies make improvements to their products as they gather data.

If by "clean development process" you mean the tech has never had an issue on public roads, you will be waiting for a very, very long time

 

From the Model 3 manual.
"Forward Collision Warning
Model 3 monitors the area in front of it for the presence of an object such as a vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian. If a collision is considered likely unless you take immediate corrective action, Forward Collision Warning is designed to sound a chime and highlight the vehicle in front of you in red on the touchscreen. If this happens, TAKE IMMEDIATE CORRECTIVE ACTION!


Visual, audible, and haptic feedback warnings cancel automatically when the risk of a collision has been reduced (for example, you have decelerated or stopped Model 3, or the object in front of your vehicle has moved out of your driving path).

If immediate action is not taken when Model 3 issues a Forward Collision Warning, Automatic Emergency Braking (if enabled) may automatically apply the brakes if a collision is considered imminent (see Automatic Emergency Braking).

By default, Forward Collision Warning is turned on."
Collision Avoidance Assist

Instead of speculating over whether Tesla has a working alert system, maybe do a search.

Now there are situations where alerts may not even come on, but it is something to be aware of with all ADAS.
Safety Sense Failures | PriusChat

On a curve, my Outback started braking for a truck that was in the neighboring turn lane. These are just driving aids. The manuals cover some cases where they might fail, and contain warnings that not every such case can be covered in the book.

Most of the public's exposure to aircraft autopilot is from entertainment media, which does not cover the limitations, or the hours of training pilots need to be certified to use it. They think the system is magic. That becomes an issue for a car system called Autopilot.

"For the survey, more than 2,000 drivers were asked about five Level 2 system names currently on the market. The names were Autopilot (used by Tesla), Traffic Jam Assist (Audi and Acura), Super Cruise (Cadillac), Driving Assistant Plus (BMW) and ProPilot Assist (Nissan). Participants were told the names of the systems but not the vehicle brands associated with them and weren't given any other information about the systems.

None of these systems reliably manage lane-keeping and speed control in all situations (see "IIHS examines driver assistance features in road, track tests," Aug. 7, 2018). All of them require drivers to remain attentive, and all but Super Cruise warn the driver if hands aren't detected on the wheel. Super Cruise instead uses a camera to monitor the driver's gaze and will issue a warning if the driver isn't looking forward.

Each participant answered questions about two of the systems chosen at random. They were asked whether particular behaviors were safe while using that technology.

When asked whether it would be safe to take one's hands off the wheel while using the technology, 48 percent of people asked about Autopilot said they thought it would be, compared with 33 percent or fewer for the other systems. Autopilot also had substantially greater proportions of people who thought it would be safe to look at scenery, read a book, talk on a cellphone or text. Six percent thought it would be OK to take a nap while using Autopilot, compared with 3 percent for the other systems."
New studies highlight driver confusion about automated systems

If people read the owner's manual, they would know what the systems can do, but they aren't required too, and many don't.

 

I've had to compromise on many other ideals as well. Since it sounds like it'll be a while before this one gets put to the test, I choose to live the dream for now.

 

Fair enough.
However, I am guessing you don't hold tests on Brakes to the same standard??

 

Sorry but I don't think I understand your question. Are you asking me if I hold car brakes, as a technology, to the same standard as I would an autopilot/fsd feature?

 

Hasn't it already been noted that the FSD depends on the human to be constantly alert and ready to override the FSD whenever the driver feels that the system is behaving incorrectly or unsafely? If I were analyzing the relative safety of FSD I'd also have to include every time the driver had to overrule FSD as an accident. The tesla tool that is actively improving safety at that point is the driver monitoring "nag" that forced the driver to pay attention. Unfortunately, Musk announced publicly that Tesla was willing to turn off that feature for "good drivers".

BTW, that feature has been available in some cars for more than 75 years. It's usually implemented with audible and haptic feedback as the driver falls asleep at the wheel. In our 1950's Pontiac station wagon the audible warning ranged from "Wake up, Dammit!" to frightened kids screaming in concert. I do not recommend using that feature.