Tensions concerning charging stations.

Wait ... aren't all EV's plug ins? (humor) It's not a plugin actually, unless we redefine EV's as plugin's. Yea, it's in the lease holder's best interest (700 only for the U.S. - and just in CA & NY, but not for sale) to be cooperative with PHEV's ... because they take almost 7hrs (even tho they charge @ 7.7kWh!!) to get them from empty to full ... and creating good will to someone who has no gasoline backup could cause a kink in one's day - leaving them high & dry.
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Not being a business owner, you likely don't realize your fee schedule is unworkable (as I've mentioned in multiple prior posts). Business/Commercial sites in several metro areas in several states pay dearly for their commercial power. You can't put in an L2 EVSE and expect for it to ever pay for itself if your power STARTS at 59 cents/kWh then goes up several tiers. Our areas in so Cal charge a "demand fee" where even if your business even has the POTENTIAL to pull over 25kW's off one device (think big air handlers, elevators, auto garage lifts, etc) you pay THOUSANDS just for having that oportunity ... never even pulling 1kWh ...
so good luck paying of that 4 figure EVSE, then throw in insurance, maintenance etc. If you're WAY out there in unpopulated Podunk Idaho, next to a hydro dam, you can expect to pay under 50 cents ... otherwse, forget it. These business folks do NOT pay residential rates.
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It's one thing if a business expects the charging stations to be a profit center. But if it is intended to draw in customers who would otherwise go the competitor down the street, the economics are different. It becomes another business expense, like advertising or providing parking spaces for customers.

 

Attracting the above average disposable income of a BEV/PHEV owner to one's business is probably worth some degree of loss on a charging station. I doubt many charging station owners are generating significant revenue/profit streams directly from them, but they don't have to.

 

Correct, I was NOT aware of the commercial power rates. WOW. So when a business, city or whatever sets up a charge station free or nominal residential comparable rates, they are subsidizing it big time. As you say, as a cost of doing business to create goodwill (hopefully to customers). CIties would be paying to add quality of life for their citizens and send a green statement ( at a significant cost... tks for this perspective!).

To me this makes me feel that 'freebie quiblers', time hogs, etc are even more petty and inconsiderate (overly selfish).
Not that it would fit, but it almost seems it might be instructive to have signs on charge stations mentioning how (heavily) they are subsidized by business 'ABC', our fair city, county, state or what ever. It may not affect the overly selfish 'takers', but to many (like me) it would give me a better understanding and appreciation of the benefit that was being made available to me and everyone.

Personally, if I see someone confused or struggling with some technology (parking ticket machine, plug in station) that I am familiar with, I am happy to help someone learn the device. To me that is one very small way to pay it forward in helping our fellow man. I would prefer to let go of my 'desire' to get an 11 mile (.42¢ at home) charge, to be able to help someone. I remember my wife and my first time at a public ChargePoint station. She had just created the account a day or so before, but we had no idea how to use the station. Turns out it was a 'free' station which confused us more. I vary rarely ride Bart. several months ago I was late and in a rush, I ran up to the ticket machine and did not know where to start. I asked a commuter next to me, and boom I had my ticket (thank you).

Being flustered can make some folks curt in their interactions, so if that 'might be the case', why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if I do perceive them as a jerk, I'll still try to let it go. Either way, I get to choose to help, let it go or raise my blood pressure. YEVMMV

PS. I'm not commenting on OP (Andy) as I was not there and in his situation.

 

For cities that have a city-owned electricity provider, the cost of power and commercial vs. residential rates for municipal charging stations is somewhat moot. I don't know how it works in other states, but many cities in California have municipally owned electric utilities.

 

The rate that commercial business pays for electricity must vary by city and state. The company I work for is the largest consumer of electricity in the city, and they pay half as much per KW as the residential rate (about $0.045/KW). Of course, silicon wafer manufacturing is industrial and not commercial, but the reduced rate is offered because they are such a large consumer.

 

No, this is generally not true. I don't know where the high rates are that hill mentions.
In Northern CA (served by PG&E) here are some typical rates:

commercial (schedule A1) $0.15 (winter) $0.21 (summer)
commercial (A-10) $0.10 - $0.16
Industrial (E20) $0.07 - $0.13

source: Pacific Gas & Electric - Rates

There are also TOU rates that give some lower rates, etc. And most of these have other charges based on their peak draw, etc. But for most of these customers, EV charging is in the noise and is only a small increment to their bills and they generally don't have any tiers that cost more as usage increases like PG&E chargest for residential use. This actually makes sense because it would penalize a business for growing.

In the City of Santa Clara, for example, the rates are even lower.
Large Industrial $0.074 (non-peak) to $0.98 (peak)

Source: Rates

In San Diego:
commercial (sched A) $0.09 - $0.11
Electric Tariff Book - Commercial/Industrial Rates | San Diego Gas & Electric

I doubt there is any commercial rate that starts at $0.59 per kwh (usage rate, excluding meter fees, peak demand fees, etc)

Mike

 

I don't know about other states variability from city to city ... but definately state to state, and region to region within states. Your avatar doesn't show your location, so it'd be impossible to comment on your particular commercial rates' differences ... other than to say it's great your area is so different from the hundreds of thousand of industrial/commercial businesses NOT getting low cost power.

The 2 largest electrical utility companies serving the millions (largest service areas) in LA, OC, and San Diego & San Bernardino Counties charged the out outrageous amounts below, up until spring of this year. The latest increases haven't been web published yet. Commercial /industrial customers are places like strip malls, auto dealerships, hotels, amusement parks, manufacturing plants etc. Note the cost per kWh for their "demand" as well as energy demand:

Southern California Edison (commercial/industrial)
Ouch ... welcome to business in sunny California.
The one redeeming thing under 'demand' fee rate structures is that once you have it for your business anyway, it's not too much worse when you throw up a couple EVSE's. But if you wanted to put of a little kiosk type arrangement with a few L2's & L3's ? forget it.
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Perhaps I don't have a full understanding of how commercial and industrial utilities are billed. The information provided above is poorly formatted, and I'm not sure what a demand charge is, or how it's calculated.

In the Portland area, the utility is Portland General Electric, and TOU schedules are an opt-in option (for residential, at least). The company I work for uses Clark Public Utilities, and their residential rates do not have TOU schedules.

I pay a $12 basic monthly fee, plus $0.0816/kWh.

 

You can doubt all you want ... or ... you can get out more often. I already posed one major metropolis in our state. Here's another area in Texas:

'Demand fee' may seem unfair, but it's PUC-approved
See, the thing is - just because SOME areas don't have demand fee structures, doesn't mean others don't. So to tangent back onto the point ... folks setting up EVSE's for our benefit - often get cursed out by the users, because they charge more than some of the low residential rates. Just saying ... go a little easier on the people/agencies that set these things up for users.
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Aren't you talking about a demand fee? This is different than a per kilowatt-hour fee. The demand fee is a flat fee (as I understand it) for your peak power. In the case you link to above the demand fee is $5.90 per kw. If the peak draw is 10 kw, they will be paying $59. This has nothing to do with the rate they are charged per kwh. A business could be using, for example, 5 kw on average and 10 kw peak for 24 hrs. That would be 120 kwh for the day, or 3600 kwh per month. At, say $0.15 per kwh this would be $540. You would then add in the demand fee of $59. Or $599. This is an average kwh rate of $0.166. A business with a lower peak would get closer to the $0.15 rate. A business with a larger peak would pay more.

Mike

 

I think the posted data supports 3PriusMike's point that "EV charging is in the noise". According to this data, a typical level 2 charging station is not going to raise the total cost per kWh to the business very much, even with the power demand fees shown.

Now a DC fast charging station or two may be a different story, but I don't see too many businesses outside of Tesla doing this.

 

The real point is that I don't think there is any business that pays $0.59 per incremental kilowatt-hour (that uses any reasonable amount of power such that meter fees, taxes, demand fees, etc aren't somehow the major part of their bill). A retail location that is closed, for example, might just have a burgler alarm and a light or two and might just consume 1 kwh per day and end up with an abnormally high per kwh effective rate due to the effect of paying taxes, meter fees, demand fees, etc. But this isn't what we are talking about.

The actual per kwh fees in all locations in CA that I could find are about $0.06 to $0.15.

People talk about states being pro or anti-business all the time. But $0.59 per kwh would be an all-time anti-business stance that would make headlines, have business leaders talking heavily about leaving the state, figuring out how to setup power co-ops, making companies like Bloom huge, drive Google and all cloud internet companies out of the area, etc.

Mike

 

The demand fee is flat? No, that's not true, as you described it. In your example for instance there are several assumptions.
1st ... your example of 10kw: I suppose in some imaginary area, an INSTANTANEOUS draw of only 10kW might be considered "Demand" ... but not really. You see, even residences with a 200amp service (pretty standard for modern homes) can pull over FOUR TIMES that 10kW amount. That's based on 240v time 200amps (or even subtracting >10% . Typically, industrial/commercial Demand fees kick in at between 20kW to 50kW. But I'll get back to that.
2nd ... Your Link to PG & E. Did you even look at the commercial rates you linked? ... Even APART from demand fees? Let me accommodate you with the paste below. Your PG&E rates (which are not too bad) shows your TOU A6 rates going up to almost 50¢ (see column J9) in one example. But that's not even the demand fee ... and yes ... of course I'm talking demand fees, because many locations tack them on, turning on their MAX draw (described below) :



Again - the way demand fees work in the lower half of Calif, is like this: If you hit the requisite threshold (let's say it's a nice round number ... 25kW or 50kW) for ANY time with in a 3 month period of a year ... the demand fee (your fee chart spreadsheet/link shows between $3 - $13 per kWh) is then factored onto EVERY kWh you use - DURING THAT 3 month part of the year. The fact that you only run lights after dark would have no impact on reaching a demand fee threshold.

This concept should not be hard to grasp. Why do you think so few quick chargers have been installed in So Cal? It's because a QC can EASILY pull 50kW - 100kW ... all by their lonesome self. Now consider an establishment that wants to install 6 L2 EVSE's. Even the puny draw of 6 simultaneous PiP's charging would amount to >18kW's. If the business' other equipment (again ... as stated in my above posts) only pulls a measly 7kW's ... BAM ... you get HUGE electric bills. And that's presuming it's just a puny PiP draw. Throw in just 3 Leaf's @ 6kW's a piece ... BAM. Or bigger draws like the RAV4-EV BAM ... just two of them.

With this understanding of demand fees - Imagine a commercial business that logs 12hrs daily - averaging 10kW's per hour ... that's 120kWh a day - times 30 days, that's 3,600 kWh's. But if you hit demand fees? BAM ... you guessed it ... a FIVE FIGURE electric bill.

You say the point is, that no business pays 59¢/kWh? No - the point is, your commercial operation hits a demand fee - and you'll pay way over 59¢/kWh. Ask your local So Cal Nordstroms ... or St Joseph hospital ... or Toyota dealer your self, if their electric bill is in the five figures/month. (maybe Diane will chime in). But a hospital or major retailer or auto dealer will clear way more than that amount in one day. I understand why you don't think commercial establishments don't pay 59¢/kwh. But it shouldn't be such a stretch now, looking at the NON demand fee rates of your own post. Then throw demand on top of that and yea ... you'd WISH you were only paying 59¢/kWh in SOME areas. Yes ... other areas differ. But even your chart above shows how quick commercial rates rack up. Hope that helps.

My point is, plug in owners shouldn't be such skin flints and shouldn't be show harsh on the folks that set these units up.
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I agree with this point, completely.

The PG&E rate that you cherry picked is for peak hours during the summer. These rates are setup this way to encourage cutting back on A/C on hot days so the utility doesn't need to buy expensive power from elsewhere, etc. Most of the rest of the time they are paying $0.13, $0.15 or $0.24 (or thereabouts). And yes, I understand the demand fee. It is a "flat rate" for the billing period or other cycle that "ratchets" in for your peak demand. This is designed so that if the utility puts in a large amperage connection and the business rarely uses it they pay a bit extra compared to a business that is using and paying for a relatively constant demand.

It becomes a problem (billing-wise) for a business only if their usage is very peaky -- which also means they have lots of periods of low usage (relatively). Do the math on the rates and you'll see the demand fees are in the noise for businesses that use a lot and are fairly level in usage. (i.e. lights all on and computers running all day, etc.) Compare this to a machine shop or something where the demand is relatively low they for an hour or two it shoots up by a factor of 10 or 20...just as an example.


If all businesses paid the same amount per kwh, the machine shop isn't really paying back for the bigger cables needed to connect up their business...since they need 10x as large of wiring, but rarely use it.

Now on to the idea of charging EVs at businesses. Yes a small office would have a problem if they installed numerous fast chargers and they were all used at once and their normal load was just a few light and computers. Their peak demand would go up significantly. But if the business was a store, such as a Target, HomeDepot, etc. it would still be in the noise of their usage.

Mike

 

This is all very enlightening, especially when it comes to the demand fee. I wasnt aware of this extra charge. So I dug up a bill at work. We have 5 buildings here and I have some numbers for the 2nd most populated building on campus:



This is page 3 of the bill. On page 2, it shows:

Mid peak - 13,669 (kWh), Demand 88 (kW) - and it also shows what appears to be a date and time period this max demand was reached

Off peak - 10,253 (kWh), Demand 47 (kW) - and date and time period

So from the screenshot above, the demand charge was $12.73 per kW for the max demand of this billing period?

Anyhow, taking the total kWh used and dividing by the total new charges, it looks like the average kWh comes out to be about $7.75 per kWh - OUCH.. I realize the average may not mean much in this case, but to the facilities guy who may not spend the time to study the bill and understand it, it may mean a lot.

However, at this building, we only have 4 Chargepoint stations (240V 30A), so max draw from the 4 stations would be 28.8kW. So I guess this is what 3PriusMike means when the addition of charging stations is "in the noise" of regular usage?

So assuming 88kW peak is somewhat normal in this instance, I could make a case for the installation of 8 more Chargepoint stations, right? (7.2kW draw per station, 12 stations would draw 86.4kW) - but only with the condition that the chargers not be used during the peak demand period

So not including demand charges, it looks like cost per kW is $0.122 or so. So I get $0.30 of juice from work per day.

This is So Cal Edison and this bill was from a time period prior to the installation of the Chargepoint stations

 

I tthink your calcs are off. If you used 23,922 kwh and it cost 3084.43 then 3083.43/23922 Is 0.1289 per kwh

 

With Tracksyde's numbers/chargers/building setup, I get only about an extra $0.015/kWh if somehow all off the 88kW demand was due to all 4 level 2 stations simultaneously charging at max capacity with the building also using near high capacity. Still looks like it's in the noise.

 

First ever Mercedes hybrid I've seen... is parked, right now, in a plug-in spot. Grrr.

So much for plugging in...

 

I got unplugged today. I was charging at the charging station on Beverly Drive in Beverly Hills and when I came back after running my errands I found the car had been unplugged. There was a Tesla plugged in. I had almost a full charger but what worries me is that you can get ticketed for parking at these chargers when not plugged in. The worst thing is that there are 2 chargers at this location both of which are Chargepoint chargers with the dual J-Plug, 110V connections and I was the only car using the chargers so the second charger was totally free but the Tesla driver chose to unplug me rather than use the other charger. I refrained from Keying his car but did complain to the parking attendant who just shook his head and said "He shouldn't have done that'