synthetic oils

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kDB @ Jun 16 2006, 07:26 AM) [snapback]272129[/snapback]</div>

Yes, they still do it.

Castrol won a court decision some years ago which allowed them to label ultra-refined 'hydrocracked' dino oil as synthetic. Since then, virtually everyone has gotten on the cheaper 'psuedo-synthetic' bandwagon. To the best of my knowledge, the only true synthetics ('PAO') on the market are Mobil 1, Amsoil, and Redline.

Anything else that claims to be synthetic is really just ultra-refined ('hydrocracked') dino oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Jun 16 2006, 06:33 AM) [snapback]272134[/snapback]</div>

polyalphaolefin


btw, i used mobil 1 fully synthetic, put it in at 5000 miles.

 

Apparently the Castrol Syntec 0W30 (and only the 0W30) that is green-tinted and made in Germany is PAO-based, the rest is hydrocracked psuedo-synthetic...

The other type of synthetic is the ester-based synthetic, and apparently, the ideal synthetic is a mixture of PAO and ester-oil as one tends to swell seals and the other shrinks them..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kDB @ Jun 16 2006, 11:08 AM) [snapback]272199[/snapback]</div>

Okay, so what is polyalphaolefin made from, if not Dino oil?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Jun 16 2006, 10:51 AM) [snapback]272232[/snapback]</div>

mostly hydrogen and carbon, i believe

 

I recently started using the new Mobil 1 Synthetic Extended Performance Oil which lasts 15,000 miles between changes. Smooth riding and it saves alot of time and money going back and forth for those changes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kDB @ Jun 17 2006, 08:06 AM) [snapback]272633[/snapback]</div>

And this mostly hydrogen and carbon is plant sourced? Animal sourced? Mineral sourced?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Jun 17 2006, 03:06 PM) [snapback]272772[/snapback]</div>

I'm supposed to know this how? It probably depends on what company is getting the resources. Right now I believe the easiest way to get raw hydrogen is to refine it from natural gas. The carbon? Most likely coal or natural gas.

So why is synthetic better environmentally? Not sure, they are about even (mostly). See here.

 

crude oil -> ethylene -> poly alpha olefins -> synthetic oil

I have left out the details, but this is the overview. You could make ethylene out of any old hydrocarbon (plants, used fry oil, etc.), and proceed from there. But since oil refineries exist, this is currently the most economical way.

Most ethylene goes into plastics manufacture, including all those synthetic and dino-oil bottles.

It is also an important plant hormone (not that anyone asked).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Jun 17 2006, 11:23 PM) [snapback]272909[/snapback]</div>

Just as I suspected and why I originally questioned the poster who claimed that "at least synthetic oil is not Dino oil."

 

Well since the issue has been raised where synthetic comes from, sounds like as good a time as any to ask the same question about where regular oil comes from. New theories are trying to establish that oil is abiotic and did NOT come from dinosaurs after all, and the debate is raging. Here are some links for you:


http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1130.html

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47081

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 5 2006, 10:42 AM) [snapback]265952[/snapback]</div>

what kind of filter are you using and are you doing the oil change yourself?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 15 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]271998[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Jun 15 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]271998[/snapback]</div>

Should synthetic be the same weight as the suggested standard oil? I have a new prius with less than 300 miles. But plan on changing the oil myself. Checked the factory oil yesterday and it was as clean as corn oil in the supermarket. Does anyone here change there own oil using synthetic?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brighamwj @ Jun 22 2006, 09:32 PM) [snapback]275646[/snapback]</div>

A lot of us change our own oil. I use Mobile 1 and have been buying Toyota filters which you can get from any dealer or on line at a better price. You can use an after market filter without risking your warranty but Toyota filters are most likely better and don't cost much more. The oil you use, synthetic or otherwise, should be 5W-30 and have the recommended API grade, SL or higher for 05. Mobil 1 is SM at this time I think.

 

I think a big key to the synth oil debate is the exact chemistry of the oil.. Hydrocracked oils are still primarily alkanes and cycloalkanes, just more consistenly sized, whereas the "true synthetics" are a whole different class of chemicals (olefins and esters) altogether..

It's the different chemistry that results in better lubrication properties and longer life; the fact that they are all derived for petroleum and are formulated in a lab is basically a red herring..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c4 @ Jun 23 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]275792[/snapback]</div>

Oh, I have no problem with the fact that synthetic oil is ultimately a derivative of petroleum, just like plastics and so many other products that are so beneficial to human life. I just took issue with someone deluding themselves that "at least it's not Dino oil."

 

Ok, Ok my head is spinning.
Alright, I know I want to go to Synthetic possibly (Castrol or Mobil one)
But I have a question.

What oil rating do I go with
10W-30
5W-30
5W-20
0W-30
0W-20

I live in Houston so it gets hot here and we don't have much of a winter. I need to do my 5000 oil change tomorrow and rotate the tires. What should I use?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jun 23 2006, 08:59 AM) [snapback]275821[/snapback]</div>

My suggestion would be Mobil 1, and you need to use 5W-30 just like the owners manual calls for.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brighamwj @ Jun 22 2006, 11:32 PM) [snapback]275646[/snapback]</div>

I'm just in for the day, I'm attending a luncheon and a golf event later this afternoon, then off to the hobby farm for the rest of my vacation.

I live in Winnipeg, MB, so the climate is "variable" to say the least. In summer we can easily reach the upper 90's F, in January -40 is no problem either. I chose to use Mobil 1 0W-30 for extra protection, especially considering the frequent stop/start of the motor in city traffic.

Last winter, I did a trial using Mobil 1 0W-20, for extra protection at lower temps. I noted a slight fuel economy increase.

In both cases, I did used oil analysis. Ironically, the 0W-20 oil proved LOWER engine wear, which is perhaps why Honda and Ford recommend an xW-20 in most of their vehicles. If you look at my used oil analysis reports, I have documented this:

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...hl=oil+analysis

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...hl=oil+analysis

Considering you live in a much more moderate climate, I'd suggest sticking to the 5W-30. I would certainly suggest a used oil analysis program if you intend to use a viscosity outside of what Toyota recommends, to at least CYA if anything goes wrong.

Note: at first, my local dealer was "worried" about my use of Mobil 1 0W-30, but had no problem with Mobil 1 5W-30. I actually had to call Mobil's tech rep on speakerphone, and have the tech rep patiently explain that - as far as Mobil was concerned - their 0W-30 and 5W-30 was interchangeable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jun 23 2006, 10:59 AM) [snapback]275821[/snapback]</div>

Given your moderate climate, the same suggestion I made for the other poster: stick with 5W-30. Your temps will never get low enough to need a 0W-30, though it also wouldn't hurt the motor either

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jerry P @ Jun 11 2006, 08:08 AM) [snapback]269458[/snapback]</div>

Cold engines create acidic combustion byproducts. Some of these end up in the oil. If the oil is hot, these acids evaporate. If the oil stays cold, they stay in the oil ready to corrode the engine. Oils have varying levels of alkali additives to neutralize these corrosive acids. Good oils for extended drain intervals have more, a higher TBN (total base number). Some lousy oils have little.

If your engine and oil rarely get hot, acids can build up, neutralize all of the protective alkali in the oil and corrode your engine. Just like cars that are primarily driven short trips in cold climates, without a chance to fully warm up, the Prius has a greater need for frequent oil changes (or higher TBN oil) than an otherwise similar but warmer running engine. (I'm assuming that the Otto cycle 1.5L engine used in the Scion Xa, Xb, Yaris, Echo doesn't reach higher peak temperatures or run so hot as to vaporize or thermally break down oil.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cdavid @ Jun 5 2006, 11:12 AM) [snapback]265960[/snapback]</div>

Walmart's full synthetic supertech oil is made by Warren Distribution. It's the same as their MAG1 full synthetic motor oil with the following specs. http://www.wd-wpp.com/specsheet/fullsynthetic.pdf http://www.wd-wpp.com/msds/00102998.pdf This is a hydrocracked, processed crude 'synthetic', not a PAO or esther true synthetic.

Comparing these with the Mobil 1 specs, you'd see that the Mobil1 is superior.

Still, comparing Walmart's SuperTech full synthetic with comparably priced synthetic blend or premium dino oil, the full 'synthetic' supertech seems like a good deal with a very strong base oil but a weaker additive package.

If you wan't a full OCD analysis of oils, immerse yourself in http://theoildrop.server101.com, a chat group that makes PriusChat look extremely casual and amateur.

As for tough standards some of my favorites are ACEA A5 and MB (or Daimler-Chrysler) 229.5. These are mutually exclusive but both offer excellent protection, longevity, and fuel efficiency. Others are ACEA A3 and BMW Longlife LL-01. Different grades of Mobil1 and Castrol meet these. Walmart's Supertech 5w30 does not claim to meet any of these, only ACEA A1, a weaker standard.