Sorry Japan. You did deserve the atom bomb after all...

MegansPrius · Mar 1, 2007

I doubt they would have developed much more technology, as we were pretty efficient at fire-bombing their cities into ash even without nukes. Now, I'm trying to remember correctly, but wasn't part of the rationale also that we were worried the Soviets would invade Japan and claim it for themselves?

jimmyrose · Mar 1, 2007

History books and propaganda are ancient bedfellows.

burritos · Mar 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Mar 1 2007, 04:00 PM) [snapback]398690[/snapback]</div>

Much the same way as our U.S. history textbooks mitigate slavery.
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And the slaughter of millions of indians.

Winners get to write the history books for the most part. Sometimes though citizens in a so-called "open" society will describe history with a less revisionist spin.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-Unit...TF8&s=books

(checkout the reviews. It's can be more entertaining than this board at times)

Nonetheless, if the official Japanese line in today's modern age is, "Until you show me video of actual rapes of these comfort women, it didn't happen." Then 2 nukes sound about right.

toad · Mar 1, 2007

<edited for grammar and spellings, I wrote this at work in a rush>
I am Korean and when I see things like this it makes me so sad. I thought perhaps the Japanese were moving closer to taking responsibility for what they did. You also have to remember that the Japanese did not only commit crimes against humanity during WWII, but they did this for about 50 years before the war. They "annexed" Korea in 1910 and forced Koreans to take Japanese names and forbade the use of the Korean language. They essentially tired to get rid of the Korean culture while treating Koreans like dirt. Once you degrade a people in your mind, it's easier to do these things to them.

The difference between the Japan and the Germany is that the German government accepted what they did and have said they are sorry. They have also paid reparations. The Japan government will not formally apologize. Sure some officials in the government have said they are sorry, but that is a personal apology. This is like saying sorry your grandmother died. You are personally sorry but you are not taking the responsibility.

Thus, when I read that the Japanese are moving away from taking the responsibility for the rape, murder and torture of my people it is truly a sad day. This is not something that happened centuries ago, people are still alive that can remember what happened. This is the time an apology would matter most, not in another 50 years.

I have alway resisted buying anything Japanese. That's why buying a Toyota was so hard for me but when I looked at what else is available and what is going to be available in the next few years and it looked like the Prius/Civic (both Japanese) were the most responsible/environmental car around and will be for the foreseeable future. Sometimes you have to look forward rather then back.

SunnyvalePrius · Mar 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Mar 1 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]398697[/snapback]</div>

I doubt they would have developed much more technology, as we were pretty efficient at fire-bombing their cities into ash even without nukes. Now, I'm trying to remember correctly, but wasn't part of the rationale also that we were worried the Soviets would invade Japan and claim it for themselves?
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Actually, no, the US wasn't worried that the Soviet Union would invade Japan. Quite the opposite -- the US was pushing the Soviet Union to join the war on Japan. That was one of the major concessions the US got out of Stalin at Yalta -- that the Soviet Union would attack Japan. The US and Britain were worried about post-war Soviet influence in Europe, but not in Asia. Shortly after the war ended, the allies did start worrying about Soviet influence in Asia, but that was later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

In fact, while the Soviets agreed at Yalta in February to declare war on Japan, they didn't actually declare war until August 5, the day before the first atomic bomb was dropped, and after the decision had been made to drop them.

But the point about conventional fire bombing is correct. The only hard casualty figure I can find right now for conventional fire bombing was an official Japanese estimate of 72,489 dead from one raid on Tokyo. Dozens of other Japanese cities were fire bombed also. And war was continuing in China, and people on both sides were dying in large numbers there, too.

Hard numbers seem hard to come by, but it's clear that even if the war was only shorted by a few weeks, and even if an invasion of the Japanese main islands wouldn't have been needed anyway, many thousands of lives were saved by shortening the war, at the costs of other thousands of lives from the atomic bombings (the current death estimates from the atomic bombings are around 225,000, though that's also only a very rough estimate and is considered inflated by some). How many weeks shorter the war would need to be to save more lives than those cost by the atomic bombings depends on exactly what those unknown casualty figures would have been.

And that's not even counting an invasion of the Japanese home islands, which may well have been necessary and was planned for November. We can never know for sure if Japan would have surrendered. Some argue it was clear they were going to lose and they would have surrendered anyway. But it was also clear they would lose before that, and Japan hadn't surrendered. Earlier that same year, Germany had clearly had no hope of winning the war, but the Nazis had fought bitterly even in the streets of Berlin. Japan had shown no less resolve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombin...ma_and_Nagasaki

Bob Allen · Mar 1, 2007

Before we get too self righteous trashing the Japanese for their conduct in WWII, we should ask this question:
When will the United States confront its entrenched militarism the way Japan and Germany did after WWII? and which led them to become pacifist nations while the US continues to run amok in the Middle East and Central America. To argue that we are "defending liberty" is patently absurd; we are defending America's corporate interests at the expense of our ideals, the environment, and the lives of citizens in countries we've meddled in.

The military-industrial complex, which Ike so sagely warned us against, dominates our economic and political scene and leads us to the hubris of George Bush while bankrupting social services and corrupting the political process. Name one Senator or Representative that has ever voted to close a military installation in his or her home state. Look at how paralyzed Congress is in trying to rein in Bush's consummately stupid war. Recruiting kids begins in high school and kids from lower income families turn to the military for education because there are no other options.

Visit Germany or Japan. They seem to be doing remarkably well without spending half of their economy on weapons. Tell me what we gain by spending trillions on a missile defense system which most scientists agree will never work, to protect us from, what? Kim Il Jung and his tiny retrograde state?

We are so busy passing judgment on others we fail to notice the huge disconnect between what we espouse in words vs what we do on the world's streets.

burritos · Mar 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Angel Flight Pilot @ Mar 1 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]398756[/snapback]</div>

Before we get too self righteous trashing the Japanese for their conduct in WWII, we should ask this question:
When will the United States confront its entrenched militarism the way Japan and Germany did after WWII? and which led them to become pacifist nations while the US continues to run amok in the Middle East and Central America. To argue that we are "defending liberty" is patently absurd; we are defending America's corporate interests at the expense of our ideals, the environment, and the lives of citizens in countries we've meddled in.

The military-industrial complex, which Ike so sagely warned us against, dominates our economic and political scene and leads us to the hubris of George Bush while bankrupting social services and corrupting the political process. Name one Senator or Representative that has ever voted to close a military installation in his or her home state. Look at how paralyzed Congress is in trying to rein in Bush's consummately stupid war. Recruiting kids begins in high school and kids from lower income families turn to the military for education because there are no other options.

Visit Germany or Japan. They seem to be doing remarkably well without spending half of their economy on weapons. Tell me what we gain by spending trillions on a missile defense system which most scientists agree will never work, to protect us from, what? Kim Il Jung and his tiny retrograde state?

We are so busy passing judgment on others we fail to notice the huge disconnect between what we espouse in words vs what we do on the world's streets.
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Historically, all hegemonies have come to an end. As is Britain, so will we become someone's bitch someday. I'm thinking it'll be Chindia. When? When half of us are spanish speaking and when there are more english speakers in the 10 largest chindian cities than there are in all of america. Give it 50 years.

JimN · Mar 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sunnyvale Prius @ Mar 1 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]398750[/snapback]</div>

Actually, no, the US wasn't worried that the Soviet Union would invade Japan. Quite the opposite -- the US was pushing the Soviet Union to join the war on Japan. That was one of the major concessions the US got out of Stalin at Yalta -- that the Soviet Union would attack Japan. The US and Britain were worried about post-war Soviet influence in Europe, but not in Asia. Shortly after the war ended, the allies did start worrying about Soviet influence in Asia, but that was later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

In fact, while the Soviets agreed at Yalta in February to declare war on Japan, they didn't actually declare war until August 5, the day before the first atomic bomb was dropped, and after the decision had been made to drop them.

But the point about conventional fire bombing is correct. The only hard casualty figure I can find right now for conventional fire bombing was an official Japanese estimate of 72,489 dead from one raid on Tokyo. Dozens of other Japanese cities were fire bombed also. And war was continuing in China, and people on both sides were dying in large numbers there, too.

Hard numbers seem hard to come by, but it's clear that even if the war was only shorted by a few weeks, and even if an invasion of the Japanese main islands wouldn't have been needed anyway, many thousands of lives were saved by shortening the war, at the costs of other thousands of lives from the atomic bombings (the current death estimates from the atomic bombings are around 225,000, though that's also only a very rough estimate and is considered inflated by some). How many weeks shorter the war would need to be to save more lives than those cost by the atomic bombings depends on exactly what those unknown casualty figures would have been.

And that's not even counting an invasion of the Japanese home islands, which may well have been necessary and was planned for November. We can never know for sure if Japan would have surrendered. Some argue it was clear they were going to lose and they would have surrendered anyway. But it was also clear they would lose before that, and Japan hadn't surrendered. Earlier that same year, Germany had clearly had no hope of winning the war, but the Nazis had fought bitterly even in the streets of Berlin. Japan had shown no less resolve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombin...ma_and_Nagasaki
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Stalin agreed to attack Japan x number of days after Germany's surrender because he did not want a war on two fronts. After the two atomic bombings the Japanese resistance did not change. Additional raids were flown, including one with 1,000 planes. IMO Tokyo surrendered because they knew what to expect from the Russians. The Russians would have treated the Japanese just like they treated the Germans.

The real kick in the balls came during the war crimes trials when the Asian countries blamed the US embargo of Japan for starting the war. It's a real shame that the Chinese, Koreans, and other survivors did not force retribution in the 1940's and 50's.

I still find it distasteful that Japanese officer POW's were treated better than our enlisted men, especially the blacks. Like the Korean poster, I thought I would be the last one to buy a Japanese car.

toad · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ Mar 1 2007, 08:49 PM) [snapback]398805[/snapback]</div>

The real kick in the balls came during the war crimes trials when the Asian countries blamed the US embargo of Japan for starting the war. It's a real shame that the Chinese, Koreans, and other survivors did not force retribution in the 1940's and 50's.
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Too true. And, instead of punishing Japan by splitting the country in half like they did to Germany, they did it to Korea instead. This is the reason we have a North and South Korea. Now look at the mess we have. Similar to what the Brits did to India and Pakistan. Japan on the other hand were given help and were rebuilt with the help of America. Korea on the other hand was left to rot in two pieces. (Not that everything the Americans did in Japan was great but you see my point.) When S. Korea was left off the list of countries in the security interest of America, N. Korea decided it could invade the south without intervention. Fortunately they were wrong but, again, because America had such a low regard for Korea, another hardship had to be faced by my people.

I cannot blame America at that time for everything. After all, by this time Japan had already forced it's culture on us for 50 years. All signs were in Japanese, everyone spoke Japanese, it looked like a backwards Japan. Korea was not developed during this time, they exploited Korea for it's resources like they did Manchuria. (By resources, I also mean the comfort women.) So when the Americans came to Korea, the prospects looked bleak for my country. They took Japan, an industrialized country, and gave half of a nation they thought was backwards to the Soviets. Not a bad deal, right? I can't blame the American leaders for that, they were doing what they thought was best.

We now see that our actions now can have a grave impact in the future.

Anyway, sorry for the long rants but this is emotional for me.

dbermanmd · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Mar 1 2007, 07:21 PM) [snapback]398771[/snapback]</div>

Historically, all hegemonies have come to an end. As is Britain, so will we become someone's bitch someday. I'm thinking it'll be Chindia. When? When half of us are spanish speaking and when there are more english speakers in the 10 largest chindian cities than there are in all of america. Give it 50 years.
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Wrong

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Angel Flight Pilot @ Mar 1 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]398756[/snapback]</div>

Before we get too self righteous trashing the Japanese for their conduct in WWII, we should ask this question:
When will the United States confront its entrenched militarism the way Japan and Germany did after WWII? and which led them to become pacifist nations while the US continues to run amok in the Middle East and Central America. To argue that we are "defending liberty" is patently absurd; we are defending America's corporate interests at the expense of our ideals, the environment, and the lives of citizens in countries we've meddled in.

The military-industrial complex, which Ike so sagely warned us against, dominates our economic and political scene and leads us to the hubris of George Bush while bankrupting social services and corrupting the political process. Name one Senator or Representative that has ever voted to close a military installation in his or her home state. Look at how paralyzed Congress is in trying to rein in Bush's consummately stupid war. Recruiting kids begins in high school and kids from lower income families turn to the military for education because there are no other options.

Visit Germany or Japan. They seem to be doing remarkably well without spending half of their economy on weapons. Tell me what we gain by spending trillions on a missile defense system which most scientists agree will never work, to protect us from, what? Kim Il Jung and his tiny retrograde state?

We are so busy passing judgment on others we fail to notice the huge disconnect between what we espouse in words vs what we do on the world's streets.
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I got it - dissolve the USA - we are sooo evil.

Japan / Germany doing well - maybe because we democratized them at the expense of 400,000 American lives?

Spending on defense - what are we spending on defense as a % of our GDP? What are they spending?

Do you believe everything you read if you read it often enough?

Tiny "retrograde" states with little nuclear weapons should probably not be ignored. Why dont you give a few to iran and close your eyes somewhere safe i suggest.

another enabler of evil - the threat from within is greater than from the outside.

Bob Allen · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 3 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]399079[/snapback]</div>

Wrong
I got it - dissolve the USA - we are sooo evil.

Japan / Germany doing well - maybe because we democratized them at the expense of 400,000 American lives?

Spending on defense - what are we spending on defense as a % of our GDP? What are they spending?

Do you believe everything you read if you read it often enough?

Tiny "retrograde" states with little nuclear weapons should probably not be ignored. Why dont you give a few to iran and close your eyes somewhere safe i suggest.

another enabler of evil - the threat from within is greater than from the outside.
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Your sarcasm aside, you display the familiar knee jerk patriotic response to any criticism of the US. I never suggested "dissolving" the US nor was I suggesting that we are "sooooo evil". All I'm suggesting is that we look honestly at all our actions on the world stage (not just the honorable stuff like fighting WWII), and stop whitewashing our history before we demand that other nations do the same. A huge problem we face in places like the Middle East is that our foreign policy is mostly self serving and hypocritical (i.e. supporting really awful governments because we want/need their resources), and the citizens of those countries know it. We ignore that at our peril. Our overthrow of the legitimate government in Iran and our installation of the Shah led to the hostage crisis. Our mess in Iraq stems largely from hubris, arrogance and an abysmal ignorance of history and culture. What do you read and what do you believe?

HSD · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Mar 1 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]398578[/snapback]</div>

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wi...world-headlines

Talk about a slap in the face for the korean and chinese victims.
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I think that this is not a good example. Civilized Europe has made the greatest crimes against America Indians-Asia-Africa with colonial possessions, Turkey(Otoman Empire) has, Nazi Germany has, Japan has, Italy has, Austria-Hungary has, China has, Korea has, India has and the list goes on...

But Hiroshima and Nagasaki Atomic bombs have their effects nowadays on newborn children's DNA. Atom bomb or nuclear weapons (like Yugosalvia or Iraq war) cause destrucion for the future generations... It is not just "necessary measures" that just happened in the past...

It is like you turn once a gun on someones head and kill him every day after without stop. Eventually, we cause our destruction...

Now please, I would be grateful if you could change thread title in Present tense... Is is fair? I dont think so...

Civilized West is TOTAL HYPOCRICY (including my country)

jimmyrose · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Angel Flight Pilot @ Mar 2 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]399156[/snapback]</div>

Your sarcasm aside, you display the familiar knee jerk patriotic response to any criticism of the US. I never suggested "dissolving" the US nor was I suggesting that we are "sooooo evil". All I'm suggesting is that we look honestly at all our actions on the world stage (not just the honorable stuff like fighting WWII), and stop whitewashing our history before we demand that other nations do the same. A huge problem we face in places like the Middle East is that our foreign policy is mostly self serving and hypocritical (i.e. supporting really awful governments because we want/need their resources), and the citizens of those countries know it. We ignore that at our peril. Our overthrow of the legitimate government in Iran and our installation of the Shah led to the hostage crisis. Our mess in Iraq stems largely from hubris, arrogance and an abysmal ignorance of history and culture. What do you read and what do you believe?
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Basically a case of "do as I say, not as I do". Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

dbermanmd · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Angel Flight Pilot @ Mar 2 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]399156[/snapback]</div>

Your sarcasm aside, you display the familiar knee jerk patriotic response to any criticism of the US. I never suggested "dissolving" the US nor was I suggesting that we are "sooooo evil". All I'm suggesting is that we look honestly at all our actions on the world stage (not just the honorable stuff like fighting WWII), and stop whitewashing our history before we demand that other nations do the same. A huge problem we face in places like the Middle East is that our foreign policy is mostly self serving and hypocritical (i.e. supporting really awful governments because we want/need their resources), and the citizens of those countries know it. We ignore that at our peril. Our overthrow of the legitimate government in Iran and our installation of the Shah led to the hostage crisis. Our mess in Iraq stems largely from hubris, arrogance and an abysmal ignorance of history and culture. What do you read and what do you believe?
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Whatever. You look at the US as a force for evil. so be it. that's your right.

whitewashing our history - jeez

overthrowing legitimate govt's - like you believe chavez is the legitimate president of venezuala :lol: and castro of cuba :lol: saddam having a legit govt - i wonder if he counted the votes of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WE DISCOVERED IN MASS GRAVES IN IRAQ? did he count the votes of the HUNDRED PLUS THOUSAND KURDS HE USED WMD'S ON and you have iran all wrong - who let the shah get overthrown and promoted the radicalization of iran - CARTER - a spineless brainless anti-Semetic FOOL.

again - enjoy your views - the people you are endangering are your own neighbors and citizens.

i guess you would let iran go nuclear too - obviously - ignorant of history their too

tleonhar · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 2 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]399166[/snapback]</div>

Whatever. You look at the US as a force for evil. so be it. that's your right.

whitewashing our history - jeez

overthrowing legitimate govt's - like you believe chavez is the legitimate president of venezuala :lol: and castro of cuba :lol: saddam having a legit govt - i wonder if he counted the votes of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WE DISCOVERED IN MASS GRAVES IN IRAQ? did he count the votes of the HUNDRED PLUS THOUSAND KURDS HE USED WMD'S ON and you have iran all wrong - who let the shah get overthrown and promoted the radicalization of iran - CARTER - a spineless brainless anti-Semetic FOOL.

again - enjoy your views - the people you are endangering are your own neighbors and citizens.

i guess you would let iran go nuclear too - obviously - ignorant of history their too [/b]
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Once again ignoring facts:

1.) At what point did Angle Flight EVER state that the US is a force of evel? He did criticise a couple past actions people did in the name of the US that were planly wrong, but never claimed the US in its entirety was a force for evel. Tell me this, if your child did something wrong, would you just lit it slide, or would you disipline your child for doing wrong?

2.) Chavez in Venezuala? I believe he was elected by the people (unlike Bush in 2000), legitimatecy of the election may be in question, but he is well liked by the people of Venezula, and hasn't done anything to hurt anyone else except publicly state what the rest of the world feels about Bush.

3.) Castro? Who put him in power? Google is your friend here, hint try searching Castro, Batista, CIA.

4.) Saddam, Who the F*** supported him in the 80's, even after we knew he was gassing the Kurds? Need I dig out the photo of Rumsfeld shaking hands again?

5.) The Shah, yea, you probably liked him, right wing dictator in all...

dbermanmd · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tleonhar @ Mar 2 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]399190[/snapback]</div>

Once again ignoring facts:

1.) At what point did Angle Flight EVER state that the US is a force of evel? He did criticise a couple past actions people did in the name of the US that were planly wrong, but never claimed the US in its entirety was a force for evel. Tell me this, if your child did something wrong, would you just lit it slide, or would you disipline your child for doing wrong?

2.) Chavez in Venezuala? I believe he was elected by the people (unlike Bush in 2000), legitimatecy of the election may be in question, but he is well liked by the people of Venezula, and hasn't done anything to hurt anyone else except publicly state what the rest of the world feels about Bush.

3.) Castro? Who put him in power? Google is your friend here, hint try searching Castro, Batista, CIA.

4.) Saddam, Who the F*** supported him in the 80's, even after we knew he was gassing the Kurds? Need I dig out the photo of Rumsfeld shaking hands again?

5.) The Shah, yea, you probably liked him, right wing dictator in all...
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1 depends if my child was a country of 300,000,000 or not :lol:
2. defense rests - he sees evil and call it good.
3. google is not my friend, it is a search engine - if you think google is your friend you need better friends
4. cute, not smart. specious.
5. shah was a good guy - he did not impose sharia law, enslave women, hunt for nuclear weapons, call for israels destruction - all things i assume you support.

again, evil being called good. and the danger from within is greater than from the outside. do you realize who and what you support - chavez, arhmendiajiad, saddam, castro - nice invite list to you next party - dont forget your friend google

daniel · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Mar 1 2007, 10:29 AM) [snapback]398582[/snapback]</div>

It is well established that there were brothels surrounding Pearl Harbor solely to serve the men who were serving.

I'm sure they are trying to split the hairs in determining whether the women were coerced or not. In regards to Pearl Harbor, many women became very wealthy.

(I saw it on the History Channel)
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Prostitution cannot be characterized by any single adjective. The most attractive and skilled prostitutes can make fabulous amounts of money. Street prostitutes are generally destitute, working in the most dangerous conditions, and often hardly get by. And there's every gradation in between. A woman who freely chooses this line of work, should be free to do so, with strict medical supervision regulated by the government. But when women are forced into it because they have no other way to make a living, there is something profoundly wrong with our society. And that something is called capitalism, where most people must sell their labor in order to survive, and the underclass find their labor so poorly paid they cannot make a decent living.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 1 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]398587[/snapback]</div>

Shame on you.

There is a huge difference between a prostitute and a sex slave... the women in brothels have a choice.. the Japanese comfort women had none.
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Jonnycat is absolutely right: Slavery is despicable, and the behavior of the Japanese was as vile and abominable as was the behavior of the U.S. toward the slaves brought here against their will from Africa, many of whom also were raped.

But that does not justify the cold-blooded slaughter of civilians nor the genetic damage done to the children of the survivors. The two issues are unrelated.

If the Japanese deserved the A-bombs because of their treatment of Asian women, then the U.S. deserved 9/11 because of it's treatment of African slaves. Both notions are preposterous!!! No civilian "deserves" to die because of the actions of their government or their ruling elite.

Jonnycat26 · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 2 2007, 09:01 PM) [snapback]399346[/snapback]</div>

But that does not justify the cold-blooded slaughter of civilians nor the genetic damage done to the children of the survivors. The two issues are unrelated.
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Yes, I agree...

Those 8 milllion Chinese civilians didn't deserve to die at the hands of hate filled Japanese soldiers.

tleonhar · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 2 2007, 02:26 PM) [snapback]399205[/snapback]</div>

1 depends if my child was a country of 300,000,000 or not :lol:
2. defense rests - he sees evil and call it good.
3. google is not my friend, it is a search engine - if you think google is your friend you need better friends
4. cute, not smart. specious.
5. shah was a good guy - he did not impose sharia law, enslave women, hunt for nuclear weapons, call for israels destruction - all things i assume you support.

again, evil being called good. and the danger from within is greater than from the outside. do you realize who and what you support - chavez, arhmendiajiad, saddam, castro - nice invite list to you next party - dont forget your friend google [/b]
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OK now. do tell at what point did I say that I support Chavez, Saddam, Castro, or Ahmadinejad? And don't think you're going to git off like you usually do by ignoring or changing the facts, or like you tried to twist my prievious post. In case you missed it and cannot or will not do even the most basic independent thinking, let me make it a little more clear. So here are my 5 points again.

1.) Our country is US all 300,000,000 of us, it is our right and responsibility to make sure it lives up to its principles, just like it's parents responsibility to take care of their kids (raise them properly that is). Critisizing wrongfull actions by our country is not saying we hate it, rather it's doing our part to make sure it lives up to its potential.

2.) Chavez, I don't particularly care for him, but he didn't do anything to put a burr under my saddle. But I suppose bad mouthing your hero in the white house is a different matter to you.

3.) Castro was put in power after the over through of Batista, LARGELY WITH THE HELP OF OUR CIA!

4.) Saddam was nothing more than a petty dictator untill REPUBLICAN RONALD REAGAN AND REPUBLICAN DONALD RUMSFELD provided him with all the arms he needed, and continued to do so AFTER THEY KNEW he was gassing the Kurds.

5.) I DO NOT your assumptions made in point 5, nor do I support the extermination of all Muslems, enslavement of anyone, especially economic enslavement, or the establishment of a theocracy (sp?) in this country, things I assume you support given your being in lockstep with the neocons.

JimN · Mar 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 2 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]399205[/snapback]</div>

1 depends if my child was a country of 300,000,000 or not :lol:
2. defense rests - he sees evil and call it good.
3. google is not my friend, it is a search engine - if you think google is your friend you need better friends
4. cute, not smart. specious.
5. shah was a good guy - he did not impose sharia law, enslave women, hunt for nuclear weapons, call for israels destruction - all things i assume you support.

again, evil being called good. and the danger from within is greater than from the outside. do you realize who and what you support - chavez, arhmendiajiad, saddam, castro - nice invite list to you next party - dont forget your friend google
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As I remember from The History Channel Shah Rezi Palavi's father was a Nazi. The US & GB replaced him with his playboy son who was favorable to The West.

This I personally remember. The last Shah was progressive. He modernized Iran, dragging it into the 20th Century. His westernization of the country alienated more conservative views. His secret police (the Stazzi?) , at the time the best in the world didn't endear him to any dissenters. He was a friend of the US because he was anti-communist--a right wing dictator in the right geographic neighborhood.

The strong have always trampled on the weak whether the location is Europe, Asia, or the Americas. The constitutional government of the USA has attacked Canada, invaded Mexico (after they refused to sell half their country to us), tried to exterminate the American Indians, and created an independant Panama after our purchase offer was declined. We would be denying nuclear weapons to any other country with a track record like this. However, in the end might makes right.

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Just what exactly is a military target? Combat soldiers? Stores of supplies? Armament factories? The civilians who work in said factory? The cargo ship carrying war supplies? If one expects to be victorious the answer is "yes". The days of two armies or navies waiting for each other to form up before going into battle and having civilians sit on the sidelines watching passed with the 19th century.

Sorry Japan. You did deserve the atom bomb after all...

MegansPrius GoogleMeister, AKA bongokitty

jimmyrose Member

burritos Senior Member

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Bob Allen Captainbaba

burritos Senior Member

JimN Let the games begin!

toad New Member

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Bob Allen Captainbaba

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jimmyrose Member

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tleonhar Senior Member

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daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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tleonhar Senior Member

JimN Let the games begin!

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Sorry Japan. You did deserve the atom bomb after all...

MegansPrius GoogleMeister, AKA bongokitty

jimmyrose Member

burritos Senior Member

toad New Member

SunnyvalePrius New Member

Bob Allen Captainbaba

burritos Senior Member

JimN Let the games begin!

toad New Member

dbermanmd New Member

Bob Allen Captainbaba

HSD New Member

jimmyrose Member

dbermanmd New Member

tleonhar Senior Member

dbermanmd New Member

daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

Jonnycat26 New Member

tleonhar Senior Member

JimN Let the games begin!