Featured Solid-state battery wars

Current state of the art battery cells with liquid electrolyte, as in the tesla battery packs seem to do fine, even though the cells themselves only operate and perform well in in a smaller temperature range. The pack is good for automotive as it utilizes liquid conditioning to keep the pack in that temperature range. When parked outside in extreme heat or cold though they do consume energy to stay in the proper range.

Traditional engines do not operate well at low temperatures either. It is relatively simple to heat the pack, and all of the solid state cell designs that are currently available including quantumScape's design are going to require heating when the pack gets too cold. 290 psi is less than 20 atmospheres which is quite easy to build in a pack. Hydrogen tanks can be kept at 700 atmospheres a much more expensive proposition.

What does it all mean? Well solid safe seem safe but not ideal at high temperatures (automotive high is 105 C) which means they will not need cooling to stay safe but may use a fan to maintain optimal temperature. I set my tesla to keep the battery cool it it gets too hot while parked, but this vampire drain won't be needed. To charge fast and use battery power in cold conditions, even the quantumScape's batteries will need to be heated. Still even on the tesla model 3 vampire drain is very small (it was higher before tesla changed the chemistry of the batteries and software to condition), a user reported it dropped from 75% to 72.2% after sitting where it needed to be conditioned for 2 weeks. I don't think users will find that a problem, since most will be able to park inside or plugged in when not in use for long periods of time. The sentry mode drains it much faster though (actively recording cameras and communicating) which I find I need to turn off if its parked outside for long.

French company Ballore started putting solid state batteries in cars in 2011. In 2012 though the batteries had worse energy density (kwh/kg) and cost (euros/kwh) than tesla's battery packs. Recently they switched from cars to busses. They also are using solid state for energy storage. I have no idea on the current key metrics energy density(kwh/kg) and cost ($ or euro/kwh) but obviously if they have their batteries running around in vehicles then quantumScape is not the only one that can build.
Electricity storage and systems - Bolloré
More than 100 Bluebus electric buses ordered in Paris (with LMP batteries)

I am confused by the term all solid state versus solid state battery. To me the keys are those metrics - energy density (kwh/kg), cost, and reliability. To me a solid state battery is one that has solid electrodes and a solid electrolyte. For some applications like smart phones and pace makers energy energy density in terms of volume (kwh/kg) are also important. QuantumScape admits that their solid state batteries will be higher cost in the near term (2025). Its only when the costs get competitive or significantly beter energy density is produced that they can get a viable share of the market. If an electrode is pure lithium or sodium and their is a solid electrolyte (whether polymer, ceramic, sulfide, or glass) it should be cheaper to recycle and use less of the alkali metal.

 

My point is that we don't have an independent review of QuantumSpace's statements. Like Solid power's ones about being able to use existing battery manufacturing lines, we really can't say if they are true until the companies are making product. large scale corporate fraud isn't anything new.

 

No he's not. It would be surprising if they were ahead at all, let alone by two decades.

 

Sion power's technology seems to be pretty interesting.

http://sionpower.com/files/IB_Li-S2Licerion.pdf

"With the patented protected lithium anode (PLA) technology, the lithium metal anode is physically protected by a thin, chemically stable, and ionically conductive ceramic polymer barrier. At the cell-level, electrolyte additives chemically stabilize the anode surface to enhance cycle life and increase energy. The cells do use a liquid electrolyte; however, the amount is negligible compared to traditional Li-ion cells."

So, almost solid-state? And using a ceramic polymer barrier.

A reason this is interesting:

Sion Power Announces Licerion-EV Targeting Electric Vehicles with a Large Format 17 Ah, 400 Wh/kg Cell

Targeting Electric Vehicles with a Large Format 17 Ah, 400 Wh/kg Cell

Cycle and charge/discharge performance on a smaller version:

Key Electric Vehicle (EV) Battery Performance Requirements

800 full depth of discharge cycles to 70% capacity charging in 90 minutes and discharging in 23 minutes.


Notably, "Charge times of 15 minutes to 100% state of charge were repeatedly demonstrated with 99.7% efficiency."

They have a high-energy version too:

Licerion-HE Technology; Impressive Performance in HAPS Application

"Sion Power®, the technology leader in high-energy, lithium-metal rechargeable batteries, announces the demonstration of its Licerion® High Energy (HE) technology with 500 Wh/kg and 1000 Wh/L."

 

I question if they even have a prototype in a lab

maybe a squiggle on a paper napkin

 

It's self-pressurized and room-temperature, and you have to realize that 70% of 400Wh/kg is a lot more than 80% of 300Wh/kg, plus if they ran it at 300Wh/kg, it would likely have many thousands of cycles since that's only 75% of its range.

 

QuantumScape's opinion of their competition is not particularly interesting or credible since these batteries both exist and have been tested. If dendrite formation weren't under control it wouldn't have lasted nearly a thousand cycles at 100% DOD, and they also have higher specific energy than the batteries from QuantumScape. As for high charge rates, 100% in 15 minutes sounds pretty good.

 

Based on what QuantumScape says and is willing to show of their work.

 

You must be a shill or a stock holder or something to be this irrationally exuberant.

 

That was my thought too. I even looked up their stock... it's not doing too badly, Issued at $10, jumping up and down a lot around the $50 mark. Peaked in December and then fell rapidly.

What made me think that Gokhan has a stake is the repeated assertions that everyone else has to use Quantumscape's metrics in order to be successful.

Dan

 

Sort of backwards thinking here. When you file a patent you are exposing your "secrets." If you want to protect a trade secret you do not file a patent, but rather keep it a secret like the formula of Coke.
Once you have a patent, you can license it. You can also observe who might be using your patented (non-secret) technology and sue them for infringement if they don't agree to a license.

As I said above, having a patent doesn't automatically protect anyone. It gives you leverage in a lawsuit.
But a complex technology can have many layers of innovations and a competitor can sometimes easily work around a patent or add an additional improvement that is superior to the original, thus requiring each company to need a patent cross-licensing agreement for both to stay relevant. Notice all the patent cross-licensing agreements in place in the computer chip business.

Mike

 

We can see clearly QS is currently comparing to others marketing/info leaks. The actual states of development are not known, for all companies listed.

Other fact is "Toyota", which is a manufacturer… That makes it a serious contender because the operational requirements will be top listed regarding fabrication, costs and reliability.