Featured Solid State Battery 10 Minute Charge Toyota - Lets Go Places

Yes, we have discussed your edge case ad nauseam.

 

The "edge case" is people who can use an EV for all their trips.

 

Yes, yes, all the >1 million of us and growing very fast.

 

Yes - a few percent at most of the driving public.

 

Yeah, we covered why that didn't imply what you wanted it to ad nauseam also.

 

Well, you know the answer... Toyota. After all, you are on a Toyota webs site. Seriously, the Prius Prime uses right around 250 watts per mile. The stats that I came across just say 25 kWh/100mi so I don't have the per watt precision that your chart has. I don't know if that's better than the Tesla or not. The prime does appear to be in the top three according you your chart. The EV mags don't include PHEVs in their studies. They don't want the BEVs to look bad.

 

Prius is a BEV? That's wonderful! Where can we get one?

Still, the Prius Prime is less efficient than the prior 2020 Model 3 SR+ and further improved efficiency in the 2021 Model 3 SR+ (efficiency numbers should be out soon).

2020 Tesla Model 3 SR+ Is The Most Efficient EV Ever (Beats IONIQ)


Compare Side-by-Side

 

If you were a hydrogen station selling it to cars, the delivery fee would add $1.25 per kg. may not be much when the retail price is over $10/kg, but it needs to be around $6/kg to be competitive to gasoline in California.

The 90P is no longer made. It used induction motors. They are cheaper, and there was concerns over the rare earth mineral supply back then. They were less efficient. The Model S now uses a permanent magnet motor with better efficiency; it is now 30kWh/100mi.

The Taycan is interesting. There are many people that have beaten its EPA range by a large margin. The theory is that its 'overdrive' gear never engaged during the EPA test cycles.

Still does in Cleveland, Ohio, assuming the Prius only uses grid energy 52.9% of the time. More EV miles, and it will do better than the Tesla. More hybrid, and it will do worse.

They both emitted 170g/mi of carbon emissions. The average for new cars is 410g/mi. A PHEV may beat out a BEV on a dirty grid, but the majority of people are buying neither, but something worse. By sales to date, it seems easier to get them into a BEV over a PHEV. New models might change that, and nearly all plug ins are better than cars without a plug. I haven't of someone suggesting passing over a PHEV if the BEV didn't work.

When Toyota gives use facts on their battery, we'll talk about it.

Wh/mi or MPGe gives better granulation than kWh/100 mi, because the EPA and others don't like decimals. Convertoring Wh/mi to kWh/100mi is easy; divide by 1000(Wh to kWh), then multiply by 100(1 to 100 miles); or just move the decimal on the Wh/mi figure over one space to the left.

Here are the current 2020 and 2021 efficiency numbers for PHEVs Fuel Economy and BEVs Fuel Economy

Well, I don't see a Prius keeping up with a Model 3. There are BEV purists out there, but most EV advocates realize a BEV doesn't work for everyone.

 

Oh? Really? You must be thinking of that 0-60 thing. Personally, I find a 5 second race to be pretty worthless, unless the cops are after you. Cross country, on the other hand, has real life value.

What do you think would happen if we raced from Silicon Valley to Coos Bay Oregon? You can even choose the route there, and I'll choose the route back. It's only 633 miles for the long route ( I-5 ) but I know there are chargers there. It's 530 miles if you go direct, closer to the coast.

Do you really think you can keep up with me?

 

Geesh, I had the silly emoji to show it wasn't to be taken seriously, and I left off that on the track part.

The trip to my parents is 600 miles. I can do it in about 9hrs, but it has been as long 14 to 15 when getting caught in traffic in north Va and DC. The first thing Tesla's little trip planner spat out for a Model 3LR is 10hrs, but it was a longer route than what normally take.There are Superchargers along my route, so I could get it closer to my ICE car time. Considering the grid mix of the Eastern Seaboard, it will emit less carbon than a Prime on that trip.

As for EV mags not comparing BEVs to PHEVs, I don't follow them enough to say that they do or don't, or that is the case. I do know that BEVs currently outsell PHEVs, and the BEVs getting the most attention now are more luxury and performance type models. Prius to BMWs aren't a normal comparison in car mags either.

 

this - from the company that over-promised how many 10's of thousands of their hydrogen cars would be on the road in relatively short order? .... only it never happened.
Now, the next promise is - the miracle chemistry that everyone else is saying is still years away.
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Notice how whenever I post something about a legacy automaker past, I also include the lessons learned from it?

Your posts had been nothing but complaints. Now, they are turning into exaggerations & distortions.

If you have something constructive to contribute, go ahead. Otherwise, you're just wasting our time.

 

Lets actually look at what Toyota is saying. A 10 minute to recharge (80% I'm guessing) would kill any incentive for Europe, north America, or china to build hydrogen refueling for light vehicles (heavy vehicles like long distance trucks are something different). South Korea and Japan are relatively small markets to this and maybe will build the hydrogen infrastructure. This announcement puts another nail in the coffin of 10,000 psi hydrogen.

Solid state batteries are good enough to make proof of concepts prototypes today according to both vw and toyota. Technically there are no barriers to Toyota having one out within a year. They could just take their mirai and remove the hydrogen tanks, fuel cell, etc, and drop in batteries, bms, conditioner, and a charger.

They claim production in 2025, which is a much more ambitious. Currently costs and reliability are problems with solid state batteries. If its a limited production run they can probably eat the extra costs and warranty replacements though. Given high costs but size benefits reliable pacemaker batteries are now solid state. As costs come down we should see them in phones and tablets, which should drive down costs enough to use in cars.

The real challenge to solid state is regular lithium keeps improving so the goal posts keep moving. R&D in solid state often can be used to improve lithium polymer and regular lithium ion batteries with liquid electrolytes. 2028 is much more realistic for solid state in cars, and it should happen unless other chemistries improve more.

 

if folks choose to use;
Toyota Prius Prime MPG - Actual MPG from 499 Toyota Prius Prime owners

you can see who is average, & who the outliers are, and whose claimed driving style meets the average & who is saying stats that can't fit within the known world.

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Would argue we will have a much clearer idea of when solid state batteries will be used in vehicles in any significant scale once they are in widespread production for phones, tablets, and laptops where they make much more sense from a cost and energy density standpoint. If it costs 50-100% more in these devices, it will still make sense since that comprises a relatively smaller portion of the unit cost and miniaturization is important. For BEVs, no.

Tomorrow is 2021 and the phones, tablets, and laptops solid state scenario won't be here for at least a couple years, ergo...

 

I don't know the characteristics of the solid state batteries that they are discussing. That said, I don't see a reason to use the Mirai as platform for the new batteries if they are at all similar to Li-Ion or Nimh. Toyota already has several popular designs that are battery powered to one degree or another. I suspect that a Prime equipped with a faster charger and bigger battery would not realize that it was not a BEV.

Dan

 

I looked at the site... It appears that it does not handle PHEV properly. When 43 cars have 0 MPG and 2 cars have 194 MPG it makes one wonder if they are collecting valid data. Looking at the fuely site it seems that the users are entering the data based on faulty / varied understanding of what data should be collected.

To better understand how terrible BEVs are, I offer Tesla 3 MPG - Actual MPG from 23 Tesla 3 owners

Dan

 

Toyota said they were going to use the mirai as a platform. Its the only vehicle they currently have with motors, brakes, etc designed for bev. Their chinese design bev isn't yet known. It is already designed to be low production. Toyota did say they were going to make it an suv, instead of a sedan, but easiest way to do this is to do what tesla did going from model 3 to model y.

 

Calling a critique a complaint ... ok people disagree.
But who is this "our" when posting about wasting "our time" . . . . who is "our" . . . if people agree or disagree, and dialogue? that's a waste of time? sorry you feel it's a waste or "our" time - or is that just meant to be dismissive of contrary viewpoint.

When you say posting "something" (constructive) about a legacy automaker - do you mean "something" about toyota versus GM? hydrogen vs EV?. Say what you mean! It's hard to understand if you only say the "who" ... or the "what" ... or the "legacy". Does "legacy" automaker only mean non-toyota auto makers? Does "lessons learned" mean how the non-Toyota companies screwed up because they didn't do what Toyota does?

"Lesson learned" . . . . that's a term you - alone - use, frequently, to point out how GM (for example) axed the Volt. Too expensive. Can't survive w/out heavy tax payer incentives.
So if someone says hydrogen FC is too expensive & can't survive w/out heavy incentives ... don't folks see Toyota has no "lessons learned"?
So ... GM cut bait ... and Toyota hasn't. Lesson learned?

"your posts ha[ve] been nothing but complaints" you say.
nothing but complaints is a superlative, because several of my posts encourage newbies ... congratulating their Prius purchases or helping with maintenance ideas. Not complaints. So perhaps what you are suggesting is really not about complaints, but counter viewpoints - differing over very high sales growth of EV's that are needing WAY less incentives now days comparred to hydrogen fuel cells? that haven't taken off yet? haven't taken off for some 5 decades yet?

Or perhaps it's counter viewpoint regarding killing off many sedans in general, much less smaller cars (like the Volt) as you view that's a "lessons learned" about the volt ... even as Toyota kills off the Prius V and Prius C in the USA ... or killing of ford fusion hybrids ... or Cmax ..... somehow that's NOT a lesson learned?

It's only "lessons learned" if it's about GM? Not hydrogen cars? Not sedans or small cars? Please correct me if my view point is wrong regarding the following . . . but it seems like at lease SOME of the GM "lessons learned" disdain goes back to their fan base taking cheap shots at the Prius back in the day. The lesson was that despite it being decent, it was expensive so it got the AX. But "too expensive" hydrogen cars ax is taking longer, because it's still being artificially proped up by incentives, that you yourself acknowledge do not make a car successful. So please don't take it personal, just because someone or anyone disagrees w/ you - it doesn't have to mean "our" time is being wasted.
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That's an odd assertion. I say that because the current Toyota PHEVS go from a EPA range of 25 to 40+ miles on a charge. I might need to qualify that with the fact that they can cruise at speeds exceeding 80 MPH on battery power alone. I suspect that they want to use a SUV or Mirai because there is more room for the batteries.

What I've noted about the Mirai that is quite different is the height of the hood. When looking at one parked at strip mall the height of the hood of the Mirai really stood out. That extra space could be used for a lot of batteries. Guess which one is the PHEV and which is the FCEV?