Featured Solid State Battery 10 Minute Charge Toyota - Lets Go Places

Are you claiming that because the vehicle is not out that means someone is against pre-announcement?

 

So what exactly were you getting at with this comment: "No, don’t see it. There’s no vehicle. Where is the vehicle?"

 

Ok, this new question follows better.

To restate the answer I gave to orenji in another way, that is to say where is this production Toyota BEV?

He started his thread with the usual propaganda agenda (Toyota=all good, Tesla=all bad) having again not even read the article:

For that to be true, Toyota would already have had a BEV here in the U.S. in production years ago. Yet such is/was not the case. Hence, "Where is the vehicle?"

 

This is Economics 101, a lesson in basic business. Tesla is a small startup using the top-down approach (start with low-volume, high-price vehicles). Toyota is a massive establishment using the bottom-up approach (start with high-volume, low-price vehicles).

So it makes no sense whatsoever for early-adopters (buyers during the subsidy stage) to make judgement of progress, knowing there are 2 fundamentally different approaches at play. In fact, it is absurd to do a comparison. Tesla has very little in common with Toyota.

Think about how many electric propulsion components Toyota is producing annually compared to Tesla. In terms of vehicles, there is a 2,000,000 to 500,000 difference. Toyota is producing far more and making a decent, sustainable profit in the process without struggle. Tesla is pushing as much product as it can produce, resulting in far fewer vehicles and just barely getting by. This is why Toyota can afford delay to take their time to do it right and Tesla is going all in with the best technology currently available.

Knowing that, claims of "behind" really don't tell us anything in particular about the long-term.

 

Long before a possible solid state battery is in significant production, the 4680 cell will be the new competition:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/456644/tesla-shows-4860-cells-and-pack/amp/

 

I just bought some new LiPo batteries for my model airplanes:

Admiral 3700mAh 3S 11.1V 40C LiPo Battery EPR37003 – Motion RC

On the back, they say the charge rate is 3C, 5C max. 3C = 20 minutes, 5C = 12 minutes.

Tesla cells are slower charging because they are high-energy low-power cells. Mine are high-power (around 10x Tesla cells) low-energy (around 30% lower than Tesla cells) cells.

The advantage to solid state is that they can have both high-energy and high-power. Augmented with Lithium-metal they can have even higher energy.

 

Main disadvantages of solid state include cost and longevity.

 

No.

For the umpteenth time, you again did not read the article:

As previously stated, the vehicle that Toyota will unveil which runs on this type of battery will only be a prototype. The actual production incarnation will have its market debut before the middle of the decade (possibly in 2023-2024).​

 

So you agree it is not a year away then?

 

Seeing a prototype turn mule for promoting the new battery type and sharing that real-world data is priceless... and somewhat crippling to the "promote well in advance" we get from other automakers.

We see lots of hype from GM about the upcoming Hummer EV, which was nothing but a computer-generated concept to basically distract from shortcomings with Bolt. We get a crazy amount of excitement from Tesla with CyberTruck, which is gross overkill from what people actually need and doesn't target the affordable market. How is any of that helpful?

Remember, Toyota's mission is to actually change the status quo (reach mainstream consumers), not to appease enthusiasts.

 

A supplier to the Japanese auto industry will be starting up a factory next year for the electrolyte(post #1 link). It will only be making enough for prototypes and test mules. The prototype Toyota will be revealing next year was likely built with lab made cells, and was the one they had planned to show off at the Olympics.

Solid Power has already starting making cells in such quantities. They have partnerships with Ford, BMW, and Hyundai. Ford has said they'll have test cars in 2022.

Solid Power cells can be made on existing battery production equipment. We don't know if that is so for Toyota's, or if it will need require new machines in factories.

 

From a cost and reliability perspective, if solid state batteries pan out for BEVs, it's hard to see them taking over in the near future. Their best provable feature is rapid charging times. Energy density has been touted as a big edge, but so far lab testing is not bearing out a large advantage there. For example, Solid Power’s just announced multi-later solid state battery is only 330 Wh/kg. The 4680 cells are expected to reach or exceed 300 Wh/kg.

Most of the rest of the testing news so far is less encouraging. Solid-state batteries perform poorly in cold temperatures and have poor longevity. While manufacturers are touting working on improving these things, I have not seen anyone step forward to say that they have come close to getting them on par with existing chemistry. Next is cost. We don’t know what that is, but so far haven’t seen manufacturers trumpeting cost competitiveness or advantage. This will be key. If others have good data otherwise, please post.

Meanwhile, current battery chemistry improves at a good clip such as with the 4680 cell. Aside from the aforementioned energy density improvements, as per the linked article earlier in this thread also:

Range increase of up to 58% (30% by cell design and vehicle integration)
56% cost reduction, which might translate to less than $50-60/kWh on the cell level (our guess)​

Would be happy to see solid-state surprise and overtake that trajectory, but if this does happen, it doesn’t seem realistically to occur any time in at least the next 5 years.

 

Part of the cost equation is whether factories will need retooling or not to make them.

I'd expect the first consumer ones would show up electronics, or applications where fire safety is important.

 

Aviation comes to mind.

Bob Wilson

 

This is not just Toyota, this is Japan Inc. - Panasonic, Sumitomo, Mitsui, Idemitsu Kosan, backed by the Japan government.

The biggest advantage of SSB is safety - thermal stability at high temperatures (well above 100 deg C).
Energy density at pack level will also be far better. At the moment Tesla has ~160 kWh/kg and I don't see them improving it by much on 4680. SSB can reach 300 kWh/kg as they will not require sophisticated thermal management.