Solar Panels and PHEVs

Here is my question. Why would any solar panel company lower their prices? Apparently in my state I can spend about $5,500 to get a $27,000 or so solar panel system (after 30% federal and 50% state credits) It seems the government is subsidizing the solar panel industry, so why would they lower their prices? People will still buy them because basically it costs the person 1/5th the normal price.

 

To answer your question in general terms, the answer lies in supply and demand. Pv panel costs have dropped considerably in the last year. I am no seeing RETAIL Pv prices as low a $2.38/watt by the each, even cheaper by the pallet.

The reality is that world wide demand is down overall due to the world wide recession. Production capacity is considerable, even though the cost of production hasn't come down all that much in the last few years. Countries like Germany who had ramped up demand due to a huge national policy to reduce it's dependence on carbon fuel, have now built out, so that demand is falling as well.

The bottom line is, the economics of solar is not very good. If you look at the bottom line of most RE companies, as well as their stock prices, you will see that there is very little money (net/net) in the business. I personally think that it should be a matter of national priority of this country to subsidize solar, to reduce OUR dependence on Carbon fuel. One can piss and moan all one wants about how "solar can't stand on it's own" without subsidy. The reality is that over the years there have been and continue to be MASSIVE subsidies for other energy. Long term, solar is way more sustainable, and a much better social/economic investment. Even if we subsidize it to the tune of ~50%, the long term benefits are well worth it.

Icarus

 

I am the second one on my block to do this. The grants are fairly new, the one from the utility company has just been approved. Other reasons--
- you need to lay out a significant amount of money to start with, in our case $47,000.
- $16,000. of the grant money is taxed federally.
- Not everyone can make use of the federal tax credit, although unused amounts may be rolled over to following years.
- It sounds to good to be true, especially when considering the energy credits, which at the moment would pay us $2000. annually.

PA P

 

We started utilizing the "low hanging fruit" of better conservation only AFTER the panels began to be delivered. We still have one more big "low hanger" in the AC compressor. Example: Our surplus went from 2,500Kwh down to 1,800Kwh during the summer. With the AC finally shutting down, it's gone back up an additional 500Kwh of surplus. Our Summer yields seldome hit our systems, "rating" & it was Icarus that gave us the heads up as to why. "Heat". Although we got a ton of extra light during long summer days, he pointed out efficiency drops when temps go way up. Similarly, if you have REAL cold (yet sunny) days, you can generate above your ratings. That was pretty enlightning. So while we had the AC cranking on the 100 degree days, our efficiency probably went down maybe 10% i'm guessing.

Our $220 power bill offset is pretty easy to understand. The top tier So Cal Edison charges is over 300% higher than the basic rate. So even if your PV system only dumps 70% of your power usage, you save a boat load by avoiding the top tiers. Our area has 5 different charges, turning on amount used.

 

Hill,

Look into a water medium heat pump for your a/c. The waste heat from the a/c is captured into domestic hot water. This has two benefits. The first is "free" hot water, the second is the a/c compressor runs much more efficiently. Possibly a faster payoff than solar hot water if you are in a climate where a/c use is considerable.

Icarus

 

PA Prius - where do you live that the utility is willing to pay you so much for your system and is also willing to pay you for any excess electricity produced?

Most places I know of you are giving the energy away if you don't use it - though I've read that it will hopefully be changing in more places over the next couple years.

 

This was my next question regarding costs. The solar installers show how you can get a $25,000 system for $5000, but I was curious if you had to lay out the whole $25,000 initially and then wait around for all the credits, etc. That makes these things a whole lot less attractive. It's a whole lot easier to part with 5,000 in cash than 25,000.

Do you (anyone) think that the solar installer companies would ever install it for the after rebate amount and wait for you to get the rebates to pay the rest?

 

That explains our difference. Our utility company charges a flat rate.

PA P

 

We are in SE PA. The grant from our utility company, PP&L, is $2.00/watt. I was told last week by them that they pay retail rate for over production, paying out annually.

PA P

 

I don't know of anyone doing that, but it would sure make this attractive for many more people. At the current interest rate some are taking out short-term home equity loans.

PA P

 

A geothermal exchange heatpump system is far more efficient for most on-grid folks, but realistically you'll still need a 240 volt, 30-40 amp breaker. The inrush current to start up a typical 5 ton heat pump is formidable

A desuperheater recovery system for the domestic hot water should be standard equipment on heat pumps. Really, a no-brainer, the savings on heating hot water are very significant during the cooling season

For an off-grid home, perhaps a better solution for cooling would be a natural gas or propane powered adsorption cooling system. Most large chillers for commercial office space, industrial, etc, use the adsorption system. The system is sealed, usually the charge is lithium bromide and water

Ok, just looked into it. they actually do make residential adsorption coolers

Gas Airconditioning and Cooling Equipment Home Page

The electricity demand would be minimal, you're just running a few pumps, not an actual compressor. I would expect such a system to easily cost 2-3 times what a conventional split-system would cost, and would approach the cost of a geothermal exchange heat pump system

But if you're constrained due to off-grid, it would be the way to go and maintain reasonable summer comfort

 

What a lot of off grid folks are doing is going with the newish mini-spit heat pump systems. The Sanyos for example will draw as little as 300 watts, and they have soft start compressors so that they do not require massive current to start. All in all a pretty good technology.

Icarus

 

Oh, you mean like the Mitsubishi Mr Slim series? They best ones have Inverter soft-start.

I'm looking into a Mr Slim inverter heat pump for my master bedroom, as I like to sleep in cooler temps but don't want to bring the entire house down that low in summer. According to their specs, on Lo it runs on about 160 watts

Mitsubishi Electric - Product Information for MSZ-A09NA

Yes, with PF correction too

 

I am not sure about 'most places' but in MN the utility companies are paying about the same amount (within 5%) for excess electricity as they charge.
And while I didn't get as good a deal from our utility company, they still helped out with it a little bit

 

I was actually referring to the Sanyo which I am only marginally familiar with. My guess is the "Mr Slim" is similar technology.

Icarus

 

Fujitsu also has similar units, and some 9-12-15kbtu models qualify for the U.S. incentives this year and next.

 

Many established CA companies do this ... but startups don't necessarily have the dough to lay out $$ and wait. I'd bet many other state's installers work the same way. Our installer had to wait at least 4 months, because they were so lax in getting all the "I's" DOTTED & "T's" crossed with the state's requirements ... as though it was no big deal for them to get so close the the state's deadlines that they could loose the incentive they'd sponsered.

That's what our MT home is under. Not much incentive for folks to easily conserve 400Kwh-500Kwh of their monthly usage if it costs the same as the 1st 100Kwh used each month.

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