So much for toyota going green

Exhibit 1:

Ford:

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'Yota:

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Ford:

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'Yota:

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Are you serious?

Toyota had over 2 million recalls this year, one of which was for the Prius (which is the media darling of the moment). Not really a peep about it.

Toyota spins like a kid on one of those spinny things at a playground.

Hey, we've got fuel efficient Priuses. Come buy some and bump up our fleet average so we can sell more 5.7L V8 Tundras!

I have a Prius, but I can also see what's going on.

Hey Malorn: What would a GM dealer give me for a trade in?

 

I've seen this coming when they first ventured into Nascar Truck Series. Don't be offended with the way things are turning out. Toyota is a company, and they all care about making money. I don't care if they "fooled" the consumers about being green, because I got a 50MPG vehicle out of it. And if you actually compare their build process, you can already see that they want to use and re-use a lot of their products to minimize waste. How many vehicles are based on the Camry chassis?

In the end, they want to be the leader in the market-place. They got the car segment, which is nowhere near the dominance of the Ford F-150. Do they care if people accuse them of being copycats? No they don't. The rear-facing mirror (to watch the kids) on the Sienna was copied off of one of the domestics because it worked.

This move is just them trying to play the big three's game. What general improvement is usually present on a new model for a domestic vehicle? BIGGER HORSEPOWER!

 

A few comments..

#1. You have to be in the game in order to play.

If Toyota is not seen as a serious participant by the largest segment of the truck buying market then at some time in the future ( 2 yrs say ) when situations change dramatically, such as the advent of ULSD and/or some hybrid technology breakthrough, Toyota will not be a participant.

#2 Similar to the HH argument about it being a 'muscle hybrid'.

And if it is. Is it not better to offer a V6 Highlander that gets 30% better FE than it's ICE sibling than do nothing. If the new Tundra can advance FE in a segment that is not going to disappear how is this bad? Toyota has not applied for sainthood so supplying vehicles to a less efficient driving segment is not a sin. As a matter of fact it might even push the development of more efficient systems.

#3 The US market consists of ~50% Lt Trucks

With this huge volume would it not be great for all of us if a large sement of these 7,000,000 new vehicles each year achieved a 30% increase in FE as the Prius does over it's Camry sibling. If an advanced manufacturer such as Toyota can develop an ultra efficient gasser or diesel, or hybrid version of either, thereby moving the market to better FE then we all benefit. Given their supposed 'green' emphasis I will give them a pass until shown otherwise. If they come out with the most FE large truck on the market then they've done us all a service.

No FE figures were released today probably because the EPA tests havent been certified so by law FE ratings cant be 'advertised' or development isnt finished or there are some surprises left for a time closer to launch.

#4 Throw the gaunlet down to GM/F.

'Match us in everything we do or bear the brunt of even more negative reactions from the US market. Your truck business is going to have to move as quickly as we do in the auto business. Your present trucks are very good. They better be as capable and as FE as the new Tundra and be ready to changeover every 5 years.'

 

My only negative feeling about Toyota entering this space is that the increased competition will drive prices down and increase value, and allow this idiotic market segment to live longer than it would otherwise have.

In the smaller view, Toytoa makes more money, and GM less. What else is new.

As for Malorn's whining that the Prius helps Toyota sell more monster trucks, I'm with Michael. Show me people that bought the Toyota rather than a Ford or GM because of it's (mistaken) better FE, and I'll change my mind. That is, if there are more than two.

OTOH, a prospective truck buyer who is not locked on to a manufacturer may well be swayed by the multitudes of people who think their Toyota (cars) are great, presuming that the company's trucks will also be superior. I'll leave it to GM to deal with that problem.

Back to greeness for a moment: It is fair to remember that Toyota's manufacturing is vastly more environmentally friendly than the big Two. So even if the truck's FE is even, Toyota should get the nod from enviro groups. When the truck comes out, we'll see what the emissions are like.

 

Oh my God, Malorn was right! Toyota IS in the business of making money. And, they use government loopholes to their advantage! They really should follow the GM model and lose billions and not give consumers what they want.

 

I totally agree.

Toyota is a company that has to answer to their shareholder (like every other). Toyota is only going to answer to their customers on "what do you like to see next... to continue to be our (Toyota's) customer."

 

So much for Toyota going green?
What about the new Camry Hybrid? What about the RX 400h? The GS 450h? The hybrid LS? Toyota is putting their hybrid system into many vehicles in their lineup. No other auto manufacturer has even come close to Toyota in terms of their environmentally friendly applications of technology.
Yes, 5.7 liters is a big engine; however, many Americans need a truck with that powerful of an engine. Toyota has a responsibility to its shareholders; they will build whatever there is a demand for. I am not in the least bit less proud of Toyota because of the new Tundra. Where do you think the millions and millions of dollars that were invested into this hybrid technology came from? A bake sale? Try their SUVs...

 

Toyota is a green company, and deserves the reputation, because of it's manufacturing and best-in-the-world green offerings in so many vehicle classes.

That it also offers crap (from an enviro perspective) is besides the point. Particularly when the worse that Toyota can come up with, is equal or better than the competitors. And as flyingPrius points out, if the 'dirty' profits advance green engineering overall, then all the better, and best of luck to the company in their endeavor.

Lastly, I must ask: If a 'green' truck should ever be produced, which manufacturer would be likely to produce it ? Nooo ... the extra-socket-silverado does not count.

 

The 450h and 400h both average under 30mpg. Emissions are SULEV (why not PZEV I wonder), but the mileage ain't that great.

Meanwhile, the gas counterpart to the 450h is a big honkin V8 that's ULEV! Only ULEV. Couldn't they have made the effort to make it SULEV? Where's the outrage?

 

I never believed that for a moment. The Prius was a combination of good engineering, crafty marketing, and - for the most part - expectations that were met. Of course, Toyota also offered the Corolla and Echo. In the EU market they make a living mostly on small cars.

Where was GM in all of this? Well, they had the EV1 but for some reason decided to round up all of them and CRUSH THEM. GM put almost all its eggs into the SUV/pickup basket, and lost big time. The "Legacy Costs" reflect this as well.

What I still find ironic is that GM subsidiaries in the EU - Opel AG in particular - can actually produce small fuel efficient cars. So it's not like Lutz et al can use the excuse "duh we don't know how."

I put Toyota in the same category as any other large company: GE, Boeing, Microsoft, GM, Enron (Remember that company?), SECCO of China, etc.

You have to put them under a microscope and watch every little movement they make. If you don't they'll pull a fast one and screw you. Remember Enron? No??

As far as that fire-breathing Toyota pickup, I sincerely hope Toyota loses their shirt on it. I really do, I hope they get burned by it.

 

Before I had the Prius, I was with a friend and one of the Toyota "TRD" trucks was next to us. My friend pretended to make a commercial by saying, "All that's missing is U (sic YOU)"

 

Are there 400/450 buyers who care ?Could they be buying a similar vehicle from another car company that has better emissions, but buy the Toyota and compromise on inferior emissions ?

If outrage is to directed anywhere, it is at the people who buy these cars, and do not demand more.

 

i think this new tundra is the reason the regional rep came by the dealer one day and measured their service bays to see if a new truck would fit in one...

i don't see why the market demands this. what was wrong with the normal sized tundra as opposed to this freak-of-nature-ish huge thing?

 

Yes. I believe BMW has PZEV rated 3 series cars, and will have PZEV rated 5 series cars.

But then, I think it goes without saying that buying a Toyota or a Lexus is definitely a compromise when compared to a BMW.

 

It is a formula that has worked well in the past. the first time I sah the Lexus 400 sedan I thought for sure it was a Benz.

 

Because in two or three years when ULSD is available everywhere in the States and suddenly the new FE rage will be diesels getting 25 mpg you suddenly cant say 'Oh yeah let's get in the game now'. Foresight is priceless. Toyota is already one of the largest makers of diesels in the world. Moving this expertise to this market will be a snap. Diesel trucks are already well accepted here.

So why does this matter? If in 4 years 'Yota and GM/F/D as well as Nissan can begin to tranform 2,000,000 gasser trucks annually to diesel, that's 30-35% more efficient, then we all will have saved roughly 200 gal of fuel per vehicle per year driven ( 15000 mi ).If 2,000,000 Lt trucks can be converted annually the savings multiply every year:

400 Million gal yr 1 ( 2 Million on the road )
800 Million gal yr 2 ( 4 Million on the road )
1.2 Billion gal yr 3 ( 6 million on the road )
1.6 Billion gal yr 4 etc etc

BTW as compared to a 4c Camry the Prius also saves about 200 gal of fuel annually as does the HH vs the ICE Highlander.

Trucks won't be eliminated, it just wont happen. But getting them to save the same amount of fuel annually as a Prius or HH is a huge benefit to us all. The potential savings by converting trucks to diesel dwarf anything the hybrid autos can do. Not every manufacturer can make a hybrid auto as efficiently as T/H/F can. But every large truck maker can and do make diesels.

Competition is good for everyone. Having Toyota and it's 'green' tilt ( valid or not ) in the truck market will push everyone that way.

 

I have never even seen one of those on the road....do you suppose they ever sold one??

I do wish that Toyota would keep a small truck as well and make it efficient and environmentally friendly. When we got our first Toyota wagon back in the 70's everyone thought we were crazy, it'll take forever to get the parts, it will never last, it's not safe. Well I am still alive and my preference is still Toyota because they have never let me down. They are a business and will make decisions based on building business. The fact that they will crash into Nascar and really threaten the American Truck market while giving us the Prius, HH and Camry Hybrid only accentuates their vision.

 

BMW still makes a decent car, but it's the "car of the recent past" (80's-90's). (Ironically, the Japanese themselves love high-end BMWs and Benzes, and some look down their noses at Lexuses and Infinitis, as lots of people disdain home-grown stuff.)

BMW will probably soon be "the compromise" as the Japanese companies evolve. One can't take that "German engineering" schtick to the bank forever.