Smoke and Mirrors

Fine. But what does Toyota or ANYONE else have anything to do with the downfall of the American car makers except for the American car makers?

You began this whole stupid thread bashing Toyota like they were the problem... that's the wrong attitude... I HATE THAT... your home team is losing, so you have to blast their competitors because they're better than you... What Toyota is doing, or their successes have nothing to do with GM or Ford or etc...

You have repeatedly said that Toyota is out to take over the world, and now it turns out that you're just frickin insecure about GM and Ford. Real healthy way to express your insecurities.

Toyota isn't the problem. If anything, you should be blaming globalization or better yet blame GM's utter incompetence, instead of trying to epitomize all your anxieties toward Toyota.

To sum it up, we've gotten to the bottom of your anxieties... you're afraid of GM and Ford going belly up, so that's why you had to blast Toyota, pulling garbage data out of your butt claiming their fuel economy sucks, their emissions sucks and they're this horrible company... but really very little of that is substantiated or even RELEVANT to your core argument, and you admit the problem is GM and Ford.

 

Good summary

 

No it doesn't, I already proved that at the OFFICIAL www.fueleconomy.gov site.

Statistically, comparing 9.4 to 9.3 tons is a dead heat. Incidently, "greenhouse gasses" are primarily CO2.

The actual EPA pollution score was a much more interesting picture. The polution score is based on CO, NOx and other nasty gasses. Not only is the Colorado placed in a higher Bin number (Allowed to pollute MORE) but it scores POORLY compared to other vehicles in the same Bin.

 

I attended a conference in Munich this summer and saw nothing but GM and Chevy pickup trucks and SUV's on the streets and even on the Autobahn.

Hehehehe ya, I'm kidding. Didn't see a single one. Those Smart cars sure are cute though, you feel like walking up to one and giving it a big hug.

The driver probably wouldn't appreciate that too much.

 

Yep, that was the same General that single-handed destroyed clean efficient light rail in American and Canadian cities. Winnipeg had a nice Trolley system until the 1960's when they were all replaced with - drum roll please - GM city busses running black smoke producing Detroit Diesel motors.

Read Jonathan Kwitny: "The Great Transportation Conspiracy," Cargan and Ballantine (eds), Socialogical Footprints, 2nd ed (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 1982).

GM collaborated with Standard Oil (Produced all the diesel used by all the GM buses), Greyhound, and Firestone (Made the tires for all those buses) to get rid of what we would now call a Light Rail System.

After a trial GM was found guilty of conspiracy in 1949. They were slapped with a fine.

$5,000.

So yeah, GM is our FRIEND.

 

So why not fire the absolutely clueless and idiotic corporate managment to prevent that from happening?

Seriously, the way you've approached this I have a mental image of you walking up to Lutz and licking his highly polished wingtips. Whether Lutz or Bill Ford or whoever, they CAUSED the mess their respective companies are now in.

If I want to buy a small efficient car, with good crash test ratings, and good reliability according to Consumer Reports and Powers & nice person., what choices do I have at GM? The Aveo? Pass.

Want to know something? I'm a Conservative in a very literal sense. I don't believe in credit, I don't believe in debt, I don't believe in short-sighted "gain" at the expense of long term prospect.

What has GM done recently to even prove they understand what is happening on a global perspective? China and India has seen their oil demand grow almost exponentially, there is only so much available to pump and transport. Thanks to our love affair with the SUV, at least 50% of our oil is imported.

We have paid for too LOW a fuel price for the past 15-20 years. A lot of that was based on "hidden" subsidies, such as a vast and expensive military involvement in the Mid East. To bring the price of a gallon of regular unleaded back down to $1, how many soldiers are YOU willing to sacrifice??

Or we have to "support" crackpot dictators because they conveniently were born right above rich supplies of light/sweet crude oil. We can loudly yabber about "human rights" but easily ignore them when it suits our "best" interests.

Your continual whining about Evil Toyota and poor old GM is getting old, though I'm sure you have a lot of supporters at the Chevy board you frequent. GM, DC, and Ford caused their own problems, not me and not any other member of this forum. The problems were caused by OVERPAID, CLUELESS, and IGNORANT corporate management.

The problems at GM, DC, and Ford were NOT caused by "overpaid" unionized workers (THough GM would like you to believe that!), "excessive" health care benefits (Ditto), or lazy uncaring assembly line workers (GM line from the early 1980's).

You claim to be an economist, though you didn't comment on my background. Strictly from a P.O.M perspective, who has more final authority in a productive phase: assembly line workers (Cogs in the machine) or corporate management (They control the machine and the building the machine is in)?

 

So American consumers are a bunch of morons to you?

Way to show faith in your country's buying public...

You seem to be implying that Toyota is doing something unethical here. Why don't you go sue their pants off then.... class action lawsuit. That'll keep you busy and waste all of your money.

Has it ever occurred to you that the average consumer can make decisions without you clubbing them over their head and telling them to buy domestic? People STILL buy American, and most of the cars out there on the road are still American cars, so I don't see this Toyota conspiracy of yours coming to fruition.

Moreover, I find your argument hanging by a thread. You seem to have made the point that it's imperative that Americans buy domestic to save the car companies... but then go and say you don't have faith in the American consumer to make the right decision based on quality (and to you the right decision seems to be buy American)...

I believe that Americans can make their own decisions on their own... and your attack on Toyota is mind boggling.

You seem to want to punish Toyota for their successes.

 

"GM has invested heavily in hydrogen as they are betting their future that hydrogen will power the world economy eventually, after all Hybrid and petroleum-use minimization through hybrid technologies etc is just prolonging the inevitable. I predict that within 10 years most new vehicles will not be powered by petroleum. Whoever perfects that technology will dominate transportation in the 21st century."

They'll never make it. 10 years? Try 20-30. NOW is when they should have viable vehicles that people need/want or are even remotely interested in.

Curt.

PS I do agree that Walmart is evil. lots of info on that on the 'net. Studies and reports and the like.

 

"How many foreign vehicles have been sold in Japan in the last 50 years? Was that because Japanese consumers didn't want a Chevy or a BMW?"

Could be the quality isn't there? They themselves build the better vehicle? Why do they need 'our' headaches with low-quality, high consumption vehicles?

 

Shouldn't that be EVERY car company's intent? To paint themselves in a positive light? Last time I saw a GM commercial they were claiming that "fuel economy is just as important to us as it is to you."

Last time I saw a commercial for the Ford Explorer "better fuel economy." Every single car company advertises that way. Again, you are treating Toyota special because they are arguably more successful, not because they have done anything unethical.

All I have to say is that the pendulum swings back and forth. We used to be the same way as Japan decades ago, and now the pendulum is swinging away from us to the Europeans and the Asians... maybe it will swing back, but you can't just say that this is the end of the world...

And moreover, why is it IMPERATIVE that the US dominate every single market? To bring up a point brought up by Johnnycat, how many computers in Japan run Windows, an American piece of software? How many teens bop around to american iPods?

 

That's right, they don't want your CRAPPY Chevy. They don't seem to mind BMWs though
:lol:

 

explain to me why does she think Nissan is American?

 

The Lexus is one car. Now, if it's an RX400 then yeah, Toyota is bending the customer over and taking about 10K in profit.

However, let's say someone in Japan buys a Sony Vaio. They have to buy the CPU from Intel or AMD. Both located here. They're probably buying the OS from here, as well as whatever auxiliary software they're going to preload. That's easily a few hundred dollars per computers. And I'd wager for every moron who busy a Lexus, there are about 50 or 60 computers sold.

It gets even worse if you look at cell phones. Any kind of "smartphone" has an ARM chip in it, which is produced by Intel (altho Intel UK).

I'd say that the *only* thing the Japanese do well these days is cars. Sad, but true. Even Sony's dominance in the console market is coming to an end. The next economic power to look out for is China, and they're not going to do the Japnese any favors (something about still being pissed over the whole Nanjing incident).