Smoke and Mirrors

I see daddy's been preaching union?

Relax.. this country's fate is on bigger issues than these.
If you buy an american car, it will have parts from the motor, transmission, to all the electric parts imported and made from other countries!

Anything of quality usually has foreign parts... they do it better for cheaper.

We are now a total global economy as far as trade and competition... the internet is here! They buy from us and we buy from them.

Our own companies are sending work out to other countries for labour because its cheaper, yet they sell it here under an american name... it was really built in another country!... and even when it is built here.. its riddled with forign parts either directly or stamped with our name. "made in america" means the foreign parts were assembled here!

We benifit from foreign labor and the foreign country's benifit from our orders!.. its reciprocal!
We need them and they need us.

Countrys that refuse to take advantage of the craftiness and expertise of specialists in other countries end up falling behind.

If I was dying of a brain tumour and there was a surgeon in germany that could work on me better.. I would fly there!.... why not buy better cars from elsewhere?... it forces our companies to get off their lazy (&(*&'s and work for a change!

This world is growing so fast with the sharing of knowledge and resources that the old days of doing it all ourselves and being the big shots in the world are over... WE want their technology and they want ours!...
Ford is obtaining hybrid technology from toyota and toyota is obtaining deisel technology from Ford.

Face it or not.. its a world market now... do it as good as the Japanese, or lose out!!.. and the japanese draw from us in areas we excell in.. if it were not true, they would not be buying from us!.. we must have something they need besides our land?...

I'm glad we can take advantage of the expertise of other countries!.... We can no longer be so proud that we think we are an Island and have no need of anybody else!.. That kind of thinking is how we got lazy. We work off of each other.

I don't know how old you are, but if it were not for the Japanese and foreign car market coming to america, we would still be running around in cars that are always breaking down! When the foreign market came to the us.. at first it was not too popular because parts were so expensive, but as they became avaliable, it became obvious which was more superior. The american companies had to completly redo thier plants to keep up!..
I used to own a 79 chevy luv pickup... "chevy!".... riddled with foreign parts!
That was back in 79!... with the exception of an Isuzu trooper I once had... I've always had american cars... I currently have a jeep!.. but I'm defecting!...

In fact foreign cars are so good, and can build them for so much cheaper that they have to face terrible taxes to sell in america, because we are afraid they will steal the market!..

America.. if you want 40000.00 for a car... earn it and make me something worth working for! making 40K is one thing, but making 40K and then saving 40K on top just to pay for transportation....

How much work and how long does it take you to save 40K and live too?

I get peeved at americans with the welfare mentality that wants something for nothing!.... I"m not thier parents nor am I supposed to give them something because they "deserve it?"... well earn it and then you'll deserve it!..

*2 quotes from the goodbook... and workman is worthy of his hire.. and if a man doesn't work, neither should he eat! That about shows both sides of the coin?

Maybe we need to get out of the car business and stick with things we're good at?

Don't get me wrong, America is still a leading example to the world in spirit, courage, and morals... but we fall short in other areas sorry to say....

Interesting reading: Theres plenty more where this came from...

Quote from: http://www.detnews.com/2003/editorial/0307/18/a09-220540.htm
In addition, under pressure from trade threats by U.S. officials, the Japanese agreed to voluntarily restrict the number of vehicles they annually exported to this country.

This protectionism encouraged Japanese automakers to reduce exporting vehicles and start creating U.S. vehicle plants. First came Honda in 1982. Soon after came Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, Isuzu and Mitsubishi, and even the Germany-based BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Today, 32 different foreign nameplate vehicles are produced in the United States.
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Quote from: http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-5128-7...-3918EE02-prod5
What does DOMESTIC mean? What Does FOREIGN mean? Hard to say. Here are the brands that Ford owns or has a controlling interest in; 1) Volvo, 2) Mazda, 3) Aston, 4) Jaguar, and now they will be buying Land Rover. So is Volvo a domestic car? General Motors owns or has a controlling interest in; 1) SAAB, 2) Saturn, 3) Opel, 4) Holden, and 5) FIAT. Maybe a SAAB is a domestic car.
It seems that what is important is perception. People perceive that Dodge is an American company, but is it?
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Quote from: http://www.forbes.com/columnists/global/19...7/0226081a.html
The bestselling small car in the U.S. is a Honda; the bestselling family sedan is a Toyota. The bestselling luxury car is a BMW. Yes, the Toyota and the Honda are largely built in the U.S. (designed and engineered in Japan, but many of the parts are made and the assembly done in the U.S.). But they aren't U.S. cars: The value is added outside the U.S., and the engineering is done outside the U.S.

Wait a minute. Didn't I say just last month that American carmakers are doing a great job? Sure. But these numbers tell us about the future and what it will be like if U.S. carmakers get no respect.
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Quote from:
http://www.tampabay.com/living/story.cfm?storyid=153307
Go figure. Honda's first pickup truck, the 2006 Ridgeline, is more "American" than a Chevy pickup, the Avalanche. And the Toyota Camry is more "American" than the Chrysler 300.

The Ridgeline gets 75 percent of its parts from the United States and Canada, compared with 61 percent for Chevrolet's Avalanche. The Camry, built at an assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., has 80 percent American content vs. the Canadian-built Chrysler 300's 72 percent.
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Quote from:
http://www.raleighgasprices.com/forum_msg....31&topic=162058
I buy Toyota. Its true American cars have improved, but so have the Asian cars. They are still as far ahead in quality today as they were 10 years ago. When you buy a Toyota you expect 200,000 plus trouble free miles. My last 4 cars have been Toyota's and this is the type of service I have gotten from all of them. 200,000 plus miles with no non routine repairs and maintainance. It is not good for America to buy a product that is inferior. If the quality of vehicles made in the USA were better than the Asians, then I would buy American. Its all about quality and the free market. Making sympathy purchases will not make America stronger. Better work ethics, and attention to detail will. Then and only then will the USA be back on top in this industry.

 

dude, I hope you are not writing this in response to my comments as for some reason you quoted my reply in here. If so, you've got a lot of reading to do, only 35 pages. Perhaps you should go back and reread what I said, and if you did, I would advise to do it again, since obviously you didn't get it.

 

No, what originally got my steam pumping was not a particular person per se, it was an Idea that needed to be challenged.

The statement:

This implied that everyone that buy's Non-american is not supporting and does not care about the state of the Union, and that we are self centered and one-sided.... If I added words to the thought, my apologies!

I am American through and through.. its all I know.. I lived where intense bigotry prevails and now I see less. What we sometimes forget is America is not comprised of a land that has had closed borders for thousands of years like China... we actaully stole this place from someone else!... remember those fellas with the red skin?

**** America became the greatest country in the world.. not because we are so cool, but because we are parts of many countries!" People from all over the world with different insights, talents, and cultures have done the stressful mesh to make one big soup-pot of knowhow and insight! America is a mixture of the world! How much more powerful are many than the insights of a few?

True we have definate characteritics... Texas brings protects and hold to the history of what it took to conquer this region and they hold to those traditions of the cowboy, tough truck etc..etc but we must move on into the future of different challenges to conquer.

As an act to survive, there has been a strong movement over the years to preserve "unions". This was and is our club and we defend and protect ourselves from ruthless inconsiderate employers..... that has many good points, but misses alot too.
I too am part of a union, and I reap the benifits... but unions are basically "clubs", or gangs - "good gangs"... They collect the common value systems of many people and ensure they are defended by the power of many, "BUT" they also protect the lazy, worthless sloughers that should have been fired years ago and only drag down the company and its fellow workers.
Many of these "sloughers" are in high positions of power and management and their focus is rather retarded in the sense that as long and they can do thier recreative activities after work.. work can just get by on its own! They show up to work as a warm body.. just to collect a paycheck!..

Now that crap is not tolerated in other countrys, because they don't always have that union protection.. so they study harder and longer, apply themselver better, and work faster!!!

Therefore after a few decades of such diligence, their work pays off and they start producing products superior to the country that has gotten relaxed and thinks the "have it all in the bag!"

This happens all the time on smaller scales too... Company X is very successful and enjoys its prosperity to the point it no longer stays cutting edge, because its main priority becomes the nice paychecks that just keep rolling in. The idea that originally created the company got lost somewhere and not they just do what it takes to get by.

If we are really going to be worried about America.... we need to welcome outside influence, talent, and insight to wash out our stagnant ways of thinking?
It took a little country like Japan who are overcrowded, fighting for jobs, money, and space to have the inspiration to make an automobile that is more efficient?
If America is going to stay great, we need to accept challenges to either create new technology or build upon anothers?

Why do the American automakers do a "half sass" job of making a hybrid?.. because they are only doing it at all, to compete with the growing trend Japan and others are bringing?... If you want to believe in "green" then americans will have to reprogram thier thinking and realize we are foolish to reley on oil for so many years, so vehemently without exploring other avenues?

Mother nature provides all our needs, but we are not in moderation!.... We are a leader in the world in humanitarian efforts.. although they are often politically inspired, we neglect many greater issues... even so with our cars... we really do well with image..... it looks really good and tough on the outside, but the inside parts are cheezy and imperfect compared to others. But who cares.. its all about the money right?... Smoke and Mirrors??? If we can get some fancy advertizing firm or talents that can scientifically pick apart our value system so as to make an image that their automobile is what will satisfy our needs... then well buy it!.. who cares if its really reality.... what sells is image... the smoke and mirrors.. sell the lie.. thats ok if it works right?
Meanwhile how many commercials do you see about the prius?... rare and none!!!
I didnt' learn about the prius on TV and now that I'm watching for those commercials.. I still cannot barely find them. You will learn about the prius as the 6:00 Oclock news reports their cutting edge breakthroughs and by word of mouth! via the internet!

They don't need to buffalo us with bombardment of commercials?.... if you serve good food at your restaurant, you won't need to advertize.... The cows always know where the best hay is at? forgive me.. "a little Texas slang!"
You ever hear the term "no talk just fact?"
Cheeze.. I'm lucky I even heard about the prius at all... there is a 6 month waiting list and they don't even advertize?.... They advertise GM and others and they have to give fancy giveaways and gimmicks to buy.... the prius sells for OVER MSRP on a regular basis and even the used ones often sell for more than the original purchase price..... Drive an American car off the lot and you immediatly just threw 3 to 6 thousand cash in the drain!

Don't try and make me feel guilty for poor pitiful American car makers... like I said.. maybe we should quit making cars if we are not going to get serious?

It is common knowledge that 100K is the limit for american made cars, now it has moved to around 150K due to foreign influence of parts etc.... but we are still draggin our feet as most foreign cars will get 200K - 300K or more!

I understand in Japan, you can only own a car 2 years or 30K miles before you have to get rid of it in the name of pollution?.. this is why they are making them more "green" and efficient.
What amazes me is we take the attitiude.. why build a car that will go over 100K... when hardly no ones keeps a car that long in America... right?..
While little Japan who can't keep theirs but 2 years, makes some of the best cars for longevity in the world.... now thats a spirit of excellence! If buying their cars is supporting them and not us.. then so be it!

Maybe when the fat paychecks quit rolling in, we will have some inpiration to do even better and make something great again?

American cars used to be the fastest and the slickest and coolest looking cars in the world, and we had the most passion and pride .. to some degree it still is.... but sometimes the tourtise outruns the rabbit!

If you are really afraid for America... fight for less welfare and more people working for a living... I for one hate 30% of my paycheck going for those who are glad to sit back and take it. Don't misunderstand me... its an honor to support those who supported this country and are now are too old , they made america the great country is still is today, but it burns my sass to get up at 4 am every morning for those that can work faster and stronger than I, but becuase they have a free paycheck rolling in, won't!!! Humm.. maybe thats why I"m so cranky? :lol:

It used to be a "shame and an embarrassment to not provide for yourself" , now its a way of life!...
Wake up america! Start thinking again and make america great.... until that happens, Ill reward Toyota with my business!

 

You quoted me as if I said that we need to buy American so this country doesn't fall apart.

You are explaining the same thing to Malron that we already did on 35 pages, you are wasting your time. He doesn't get it. I do understand why he is crying, he is a CHEVY dealer, but instead of being greedy and cry just about his business he fails to see things in broader perspective. Windstrings, I would just quit at this point, Malron will not get it. There is no help for him.

 

He could defect and become a Toyota Dealer!
Then his American employees would get a decent paycheck and hail him as a hero!

Not picking on you too much... just something to think about.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion.... everybody is entitled to change it too!

A man who cannot change his mind.. doesn't have one. Not that anyone out here should change of course!.... :lol:

I appreciate spirited conversation.. as long as its real with passion... not just jerking someones chain to see them jump.

We all appreciate and respect everyone out here... even if they're wrong! B) :lol:

 

honestly, did you read all the posts?

 

When I originally responded.. it was a response from a statement off the first page... no
Most of what I read said what I already said.... so what the prob with confirmation in the mouth of two or three witnesses?

I did not read all the posts.. I have read more since, but again I have not read all the post.... did I miss something?

 

there is nothing wrong confirming what others already said, but this has been repeated about 20 times already. Malorn doesn't get it. Instead of making this thread any longer, you should read all the posts. You are giving Malorn recommendations, but you haven't read that he already responded to the same recommendations.
And when you quote me and say things like "Not picking on you too much... just something to think about." or "I see daddy's been preaching union?" are you talking to me or Malorn? it's confusing since you quote my posts and Malorn is the one who thinks this is some kind of consipiracy.

 

When I respond to a post.. I honestly don't even look at who said it... kinda like when I"m cut off in traffic.. I try not to look at the person because it only cements false stereo types about the color of his/her skin, gender etc....

But I was approaching the idea that thinks if we buy foreign cars, it is hurting america...

Try not to take anything personal thats said out here...no one really knows anybody ... we are all confirming or challenging ideas...

 

Magieddd.... I know the feeling of comming to a new blog only be be sliced to ribbons because I am new and not part of the club and I may say some ignoramus thoughts because I am not yet educated to the issues at hand.

I think you agree its hard to keep the balance between confronting an issue without attacking the person that made the statement...

I just want newbies to be able to express themselves and learn from it...
Its one thing if someone comes out here with a real attitude.. then he gets what he deserves, but I also see post of folks who have been cruising for months before they post their first statement. I can only surmise why that is... some folks like the sidelines.. some are afraid of being ignorant and getting attacked.

Though I am pretty new also to this site.. I appreciate that many veterans were very patient with me and answered and even PM'd me to help my questions that I'm sure had already been asked a thousand times by others.

My statements were not directed at you. l And I haven't even looked to investigate if your statements were the ones I challenged... but it doesn't matter...
I am not always right.. not even most of the time!.......
I enjoy learning on this site... there are alot of smart people out here.
I think the Prius attracts intelligent people... any others would be intimidated to drive one, and especially own oneJ!

The more I learn about the prius... the more I am amazed at its thoughtfulness in construction on vitually every detail.... Toyota didn't just throw this thing together.
Without this site.. I quite "very" possibly would not be buying a prius!..
It nice to be able to squash the doubts and the fears about spending so much money on something so different!

I reckon it in advancement similiar to the gas engine breakthrough back when all we had was steam!..
The Engine of the prius is different, the transmission, the brakes etc etc etc.

Smoke and Mirrors has stirred quite alot of volitile feelings on many levels.. hence 35 pages!..... but thats good!.. Many of these thoughts are thoughts we all have and struggle with... here we pick our favorite boxer and watch them fight it out!....

I see your very active on the forum and many have benifited from your comments...

I appreciate someone having strong feelings even if they are wrong.. that means they have some piss and vinegar!....
I'd rather see someone wrong who is misinformed, than someone who is informed and still don't get it.. the latter just means he is hard headed and it takes more time to soak in.. "If it ever does!"

 

I have no problem with you responding to this post. I was not sure why you quoted me and wrote your feelings about this issue. I was trying to challenge Malorn, so that means I did not agree with his original post, and I stated to him that if the Japanese are getting my money, then be it, they deserve it for what THEY have created. I also was hinting to you to drop this post since a lot of people were getting annoyed and asked for this thread to be removed and dropped. They also concluded that Malorn was just a troll and not worth 35 pages. I personally enjoyed this topic, and I do not think Malorn is a troll, he is a Chevy dealer and really crying that he will loose his business. I also think he is a bit radical as he states that Toyota is doing something illegal and we should not buy from Toyota & many other stupid things he came up with.
Anyway, before this get any longer, you can post to this if you like but I doubt anyone is going to respond to this any more and Malorn probably doesn't even read it. As I said before majority of PC members did not enjoy this post and you might get slapped for digging it out.

 

I think the turning point was just over three decades ago when GM and Ford introduced the Chevy Vega and the Ford Pinto as the American response to the fuel efficient imports.

 

I must give you credit for accurately assessing your predicament.

 

:lol:

I guess a lot of people enjoy not enjoying this thread... Over 11K views in a couple of days?

Let's just face it, whether people like to admit it or not, everyone loves a good bitch-out/drama/flame session.

At LEAST, this has been a rather dignified discussion, I've seen FAR uglier (i.e. people "photoshopping" pictures of members in "unique" ways). :lol:

On another level, this thread has been a really good litmus test, as it has exposed certain "elements", for which the phrase, "the empty can rattles the most" was created.

By the way, I read somewhere that at Germany's height in WWII, plans were drawn up to build gas chambers in Japan by none other than TOYOTA.

h34r:

 

yea... you must be right... I think Ill unsubscribe from this thread and go get smarter so I'm qualified to talk with you guys. :lol:

 

Welcome back Malorn. It's been very uneventful without you. Thanks for the news.