Smoke and Mirrors

It sounds like this round table discussion was a strategic meeting of domestics to counter the therat of foreign car makers, Toyota in particular... but just because GM, Ford, and and DC think they have Toyota's strategy figured out doesn't mean that they are right about Toyota's stance on Trucks, Hybrids, or anything else...

They may be right about parts of Toyota's strategy, but it sounds to me that they did not understand Toyota's hybrid strategy back in 2000...

GM's new Hybrid strategy has been very transparently to develop the technology to boost their environmental image. GM has admitted they don't intend to make money on hybrids... very much what it sounds like they think Toyota is doing.

But I'm not convinced that GM and Toyota see the technology in this exact same way. Toyota unquestionably is more commited to the technology than GM...

You know, you keep talking as if Toyota's trucks are the most important part of Toyota's strategy, and that Hybrids are the smokescreen...

What if it's the other way around? What if hybrids and next generation vehicles are Toyota's new strategy, and Toyota's truck business is the distraction? You said yourself :

So they spent the years since 2000 shoring up their defenses on the full-size truck, and they've managed to keep that market, but Toyota ended up with the last laugh... While GM and Ford focused on trucks, we're seeing a shift toward smaller cars, and gas guzzlers are going out of style.

Why couldn't it be that Toyota's strategy all along was to be prepared to catch the market when it shifted back toward smaller more fuel efficient cars, and their Truck business was just a feint to distract the lumbering Big 3?

 

Once again, send them our way and we'll set them straight.

 

Getting back to the question of whether Toyota is a "green" company ..

I think a fair answer to that question is to compare Toyota to it's US competitors:

At it's worst (think huge SUV's and monster trucks), Toyota is better due to emissions, but it is not a blow-out.

At it's best (think factories and HSD vehicles), Toyota is so much better, any discussion just leads to laughter.

Malorn, you obviously could not care less about the environment, but in order to understand your business, do yourself a favor and read the 2005 Toyota Environmental report. Then read GM's. Contrast and compare.

Lastly, your overall argument that Toyota has used 'greeness' to still the truck market away from GM and Ford presupposes that a large enough fraction of truck buyers to make a difference set 'greeness' as a priority. I'd guess you are fairly typical of your buying public. Look in the mirror. Your buyers will leave you to buy Toyota trucks because of reliability ... and maybe fuel economy. They could not care less that Toyota makes the greenest car in the world.

If you are worried about that new truck factory now, just watch what happens when it changes over to hybridized production.

 

Hmm, throwing money at a problem and hoping that it will resolve itself is not a proper way to resolve problems.

 

Well what do you suggest?

Driving spikes into trees, lying in front of bulldozers, creating a massive collage of dead skinless animals, what?

:lol:

 

GM cannot profit from hybrids in the same way that Toyota does because GM still needs to take care of some serious design and engineering costs, while Toyota was at that point back in 1997. Toyota has had the better part of a decade to set up the infrastructure needed, do the necessary R&D, and cut deals with the relevant parts suppliers, and they started selling the Prius back in 1997. For latecomers like GM, all that stuff is ahead of them, especially if they want to look for American solutions for stuff like battery technology and hybrid transmissions.

Plus, the fact that the Prius is in high volume production and is selling like hotcakes helps keep Toyota's hybrid buisiness in the black... Priuses aren't selling cheap either...

Profit, yes, but how much falling demand can the truck/SUV market take before it ceases to become profitable to invest further?

 

Isn't this any companies goal? Why is it wrong for Toyota to make some profit on selling trucks that people would otherwise buy from GM, Ford or Dodge?

Profit obviously has to be one of their main driving points, but unlike the big 3 domestic makers, they also see a trend away from gas guzzling vehicles and see people becoming more concious about the environment. This leads us to their hybrid strategy. In a number of years, those same trucks will be hybrids and unlike some of the current US trucks, they'll actually be able to shut off WHILE the vehicle is actually moving! What a concept!

Essentially what it seems like you are saying is that if a company's main goal is supposed to be towards fuel efficiency, then they have no right to make a vehicle that isn't? Then you should also be upset at the domestic makers for making hybrids, when they should be focusing on hummers, excursions (bring them back!) and other huge gas guzzlers

Let's turn the tables for a sec.. what if GM had the vision to start making hybrids back when Toyota did? What if it was a GM Prius we all owned. Would you be as upset about them still making trucks? While many trucks are not bought based on need, there is still a real need for them. I think Toyota is just trying to cash in on this "need". When we can afford a 3rd vehicle, I plan on getting a truck. Honestly, it will probably be a Toyota Hybrid (assuming they're out).

 

Out of curiousity, what is the name of the org?

 

Haven't some of the domestics already placed orders with Toyota for the HSD? Or was that nissan?

And Malorn - If you look, there's a huge difference in focus between Toyota and the big 3. When I think of Dodge, all I can think of is the Viper or their Hemi ads. Neither of which make me think of fuel efficiency.

When I think of Ford, I think of the Excursion or Expedition. Or the old Ford Bronco. Ah.. and let's not forget the mustang.

When I think of GM/Chevy, I think of my Dad's Yukon and my first car - A Chevy Blazer.

And then when I think of Toyota, I think of the Camry, Corrolla and Prius.. I think of the 4Runner too I guess.

That kind of says something.. doesn't it?

 

Nissan has licensed Toyota's HSD and will be getting technical assistance for hybrid version of their Altima I think.

Ford has also licensed Toyota's hybrid system, but developed their own hybrid drive by themselves. Ford and Toyota also use the same source for hybrid parts... a Japanese company with ties to Toyota... the transmission and the battery. That has been a point of contention between the two companies, and Ford is attempting to find an American company that can take over for them so that they can produce their hybrid cars in higher number.

I'm all for that, and I'm all for Ford's hybrid push. They're doing some good work, and I hope they turn it around for themselves. They don't seem as incompetent as GM.

 

GM is doing exactly that, you know. They have been very transparent about using their vaporware hybrid car technology to 'green' themselves up, but they do worse than Toyota... they don't even have a single hybrid car out... not till 2007.

An increase in production of vehicles that get 13/17 in the short term with a new truck factory, but what about the long term? What direction are Toyota's vehicles trending?

If you considered the Hybrid strategy to apply to every vehicle, the answer would have to be toward higher fuel efficiency across the board.

Moreover, even if you have an increase in production of vehicles, it doesn't matter as much as the number of vehicles sold, and Toyota still sells WAY more passenger cars than trucks.

 

So it's all really up to has the best marketing campaign....you think?

 

I have to chime in on this, as that's precisely my line of thinking with respect vehicles.

I used to hang around different truck message boards when I had one, and I kept hearing over and over again how if you want a "bullet proof" truck, the Tundra and Tacoma fit the bill. Thing is, the average blue-collar American truck owners don't really like the idea of a "foreign" truck. That and the fact that a lot of Toyota trucks (surprise surprise) seem to be built around someone who's 5' 8" 135lbs. I believe their biggest truck is still smaller than some "first level" F150 models.

Again, could they be trying to put smiles on the faces of Americans in some sort of effort to mask deeper, more ominous marketing plans? Sure can. Then again, U.S. manufacturers could be accused of the same thing. Marketing on that level is flat out war without guns. You seek out as much marketshare as you can and do whatever it takes.