Saw Fahrenheit 9/11 Today

I think his book (Dude, Where's My Country) put a slightly different slant on the PATRIOT Act part of the movie. What he suggested back then was that lawmakers did indeed read most of it, but that it wasn't tough enough for Ashcroft (as in, it didn't take away enough of our civil liberties). So literally, in the dead of night, Ashcroft and the White House rewrote parts of the law to suit their fancy.

In the morning, Congress arrived to vote, thinking that they were voting on what was agreed to earlier, having no idea that the law had been rewritten the previous night. Hence, "they didn't read it."

 

I'm still undecided, but John Ashcroft is another reason to vote for Kerry this fall. My mom was going to vote for Nader as a protest, but after seeing F 9/11 she's going to vote for Kerry. That's one vote in CA that Moore has switched.

 

i'll be honest with ya, when watching the movie at the theater, i could feel a rising tide of disgust at the people in government at nearly every level.

our government has been shown in a light that ranks right up there with the executives at Toy R Us, Enron and Worldcom.

except there is one big problem. the mechanism that protects the people has been slowly disabled by edicts, executive orders, and laws being passed without being read until finally the goal of the Constitution is no longer viable or even doable.

We now have the Executive Branch creating laws and calling them executive orders and each year, the orders seem to break more boundaries and cross more lines.

we now have the Supreme Court making laws instead of intrepreting them and Congress spending most of their time working various big money lobbies instead of making the laws.

but with the President and the Supreme Court having taken over the law making process for the most part, can you blame congress for feeling castrated?

 

Does anyone have an idea of how to get the Bush sympathizers into the theatres to see this film? If they would just see it, then some would HAVE to question what's really going on. Then maybe Kerry could reap switchover votes in some significant numbers.

 

gee suchham if it were only that easy, then we wouldnt even be having the issues before us now.

i personally know of several pro bush people that simply ignore all negative comments or facts pertaining to his ability to lead.

one guy i know when presented with questionable bush decisions will come back with something that clinton did when he was in office. i guess he thinks that one democrat is the same as any other.

 

Spinsanity is a very good site. It de-constructs the spin from both sides equally.

http://www.spinsanity.org/

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html

 

This film will not convince one Bush supporter to switch. They'll call it lies (as a few on this board have done) or explain it all away (as on the link posted elsewhere in this thread).

What this film will do is energize and motivate the anti-Bush people to get active and get out the vote. And it will convince a few (?) undecided people. Folks like my mom, who know that both parties are criminal, and who have given up voting for the "lesser of two evils" and prefer to vote for protest candidates, may decide, after seeing this film, that for once, they need to vote for the lesser of the evils. I am leaning that way myself.

So forget the Bush supporters. Get your undecided friends to see this film.

 

that aint true Danny.

we listen to ya. we value your input. keep up the good work!!

obtw... could you repeat that last part, i must have missed it or something...

 

I have several friends, colleagues, whom I generally respect but they limit their reading pro Bush pro conservative media. I had an interesting discussion about the hachery Salmon vrs Wild Salmon issue. This was a very well educated person with broad, all be it 25-30 year old back ground in biology and chemistry, who could not accept any difference between wild and hachery Salmon. I am a fisherman but I have not taken a fish home in many years. The point is it is difficult to talk to these people. I know a intelligent and well trained doctor who totally reject evolution and any data that suggests that the earth is more than a few thousand years old. If you can not even discuss issues with otherwise reasonable and broadly educated people how can this film effect such people? Maybe it is just me?

 

That is an oxymoron, if I ever heard of one.

 

hmm doctor?

well you know doctors accidentally kill several thousand people a year. now this does not include people in their 80's with some sort of terminal disease. these were people who were in for some minor medical thing and were mis-diagnosed, mis-treated, etc.

there was one case when a patient was in for knee surgury and the doctor operated on the wrong knee!

 

The human animal is capable of using reason to solve problems, but never uses reason to form opinions.

That's why arguing over politics or religion serves no purpose. You change peoples minds by appealing to their emotions, not their reason. You get people into religious cults by making them feel welcomed and loved, not by explaining why some dusty old book supports your dogmas. And you can get peoples' votes by talking about "morning in America" even when they disagree with all your policies. (A significant majority of Americans disagreed with every one of Reagan's policies, but they voted for him anyway. There's no logic in it. We use logic, but we are not motivated by it.)

As I said before, this film will motivate the people who hate Bush, and may get a few votes to switch from Nader to Kerry, but won't take any votes away from Bush. But if it motivates the Dems to work a little bit harder to get out the vote, it could make the difference.

 

I guess the point I was trying to make was that here is an intelligent person, who has a considerable scientific background, and exposure to the data that is available who because of his belief system rejects that out of hand. I don't think ardent Bush supporters are going to be swayed by this movie and any facts in in. They have another set of "facts" that they believe in. The key word is believe. This is not rational. I had a Bush supporter who tried to convince me that it was Clinton who got us in the Middle East and the war was his fault, Bush was forced to do this.

 

yes and speaking for myself, i think many people have to overcome their rooted feelings that the government is supposed to be looking out for its citizen's best interests and so we have a hard time believing when they do something counter to that ideal.

i think

"well, i dont know all the facts, there must be a good reason why they did this or that"

when my bubble is eventually bursted by the weight of mounting evidence to the contrary, i find it hard to accept because i want to be a good american patrotic citizen that supports its leaders.

 

Amen!! It is hard to change and you need to be looking for the facts and evaluating. It is easier to go with the flow.

 

...but looking for facts usually means reading stuff written by others with their own biases & opinions. Going with the flow? Well, no matter what you do, someone else in the world will claim you're going with the flow, even if you think you're going against the grain! Ah, such is life.

 

Odd. I've never thought that. All my life I've believed that the government is a collective of criminals each looking out for his own interests. Basically, the biggest, most powerful mafia in any given country gets to call itself the "government." Thus, I always assume, until shown otherwise, that anything the government does is done with criminal motives, and anything a politician says is a lie. Granted, you can occasionally catch them telling a truth, but that's rare enough not to be too much of a problem.

 

I think its really important to remember that criticizing our government is the MOST American thing any of us can do. If you think about it, the United States was the modern pioneer of the right to bash a nation's leaders. The Founders said that it was the DUTY of people to speak up and overthrow tyranical governments (of course, they backed up a few steps when they formed their own government).

Naturally, since the Republicans control Congress, the White House, Supreme Court most state legislatures and governorships, they'd like everyone to please forget that founding cornerstone of our nation's history.

 

That tends to happen.