Saturn Vue hybrid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ May 23 2006, 02:12 PM) [snapback]259796[/snapback]</div>

That's an awful analogy... they both take the same medium (gas).

A better analogy would be to compare VHS to Super VHS... which, altho they're a different medium, they're close enough to compare.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 01:57 PM) [snapback]259789[/snapback]</div>

Every review has been for this year. Since it's going into production this summer, they can't have changed it between March and now...

And they don't need much from BAS if the engine is already PZEV.

 

My goodness. I think a lot of folks are missing the bigger picture here.

Any modification that GM (or any car company for that matter) can make to reduce their cars' consumption, even if only 10%, should be considered a welcome change by everyone. On top of that, if the new car's engine also shuts off rather than idling when at a stop or when stuck in traffic, we should welcome that change too.

Do I think my Prius is a better car? Yup. But that doesn't diminish the value of *ANY* gains made by other car companies in reducing their vehicles' thirst for gasoline or reducing emissions. On top of that, any move to get more hybrids into the mainstream, and thereby more people driving them, gets my vote too.

Finally, even though GM's hybrid is not in the same league as the Prius, their presence in the hybrid market will help to ensure that Toyota stays sharp. Future generations of Toyota hybrids will not have the luxury of selling simply because they say "hybrid" on the side. Toyota will have to continue to take the lead in efficiency and lower emissions to remain the top seller. And this is especially good for those of us who feel some degree of brand loyalty to Toyota, as it ensures that the things we love about our Prii will continue to improve in the future.

My two cents, anyway.

Peter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 23 2006, 08:07 PM) [snapback]260035[/snapback]</div>

Unfortunately, you missed it too.

The speed of certain automakers to respond to market needs is horribly slow. 6 years after the Classic model Prius became available, they plan to offer a system that isn't anywhere near as efficient. 2 years later they hope to deliver a system similar to HSD, but only in extremely limited quantities. And that point, the next generation system will be available from Toyota.

Considering they knew about Prius way back in 1997 and don't stand a chance at offering something actually competitive (emissions, efficiency, price) until at least 2012, what kind of big picture is that?

Waiting 15 years is absurd. Why should we accept only 10 percent? It's not like they need to prove hybrids are feasible or dispel misconceptions anymore. How come faster change isn't demanded?

Think about how many people will be forced in the meantime to drive non-hybrid cars quite a bit smaller than Prius just for the sake of using less gas. The rest of the world has been dealing with this problem for many years. There is no excuse for not having been better prepared, especially from an automaker that sells vehicles to the worldwide market.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 09:48 PM) [snapback]260045[/snapback]</div>

As has been pointed out before, the Vue offers a 20% improvement (combined) the same combined improvement as the Camry Hybrid.

And as another poster pointed earlier, your opinions regarding *anything* non-Toyota are extremely negative. Your view of hybrids is somewhat myopic. Rather than look at technology, look at benefits. That's the way the market evaluates products.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 23 2006, 09:11 PM) [snapback]260060[/snapback]</div>

Could you make your motive any more obvious? Geez!

On this thread, I asked you to provide the sources you've been talking about. You didn't, even though you responded to the post making the request. So I did some searches on my own. Some said 20. Some said 15. Some said 10. None said as good as a "full" hybrid. Your numbers are questionable at best, and only estimates at that.

The "assist" hybrid support we have to put up with here is really annoying. But it won't last. Even GM itself is calling this technology in VUE just a low-cost solution that could end up being replaced by their "full" hybrid system later.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:20 PM) [snapback]260066[/snapback]</div>

I got my numbers from the Saturn site... which are the numbers for the car about to go into production, which are 20% higher than the regular 4 cylinder automatic version.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 06:48 PM) [snapback]260045[/snapback]</div>

I haven't missed it at all...

Global warming was brought to our attention more than 16 years ago. Nobody has done much about it in until recently. Gas prices have been dictated by OPEC and our policies in the middle-east for decades now, and the U.S. has only just started talking about curtailing consumption. Human beings as a species tend not to make proactive changes... we wait until disaster is upon us. In essence, as a species we're slow. Does that mean when some degree of change finally happens it isn't worthwhile? No. I'm glad their doing it. Do I wish they'd do more? Sure. And maybe, after Toyota and other car makes eat their lunch for a bit longer, they'll figure it out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 06:48 PM) [snapback]260045[/snapback]</div>

Clearly not as good as Toyota's, but so what? I think the last figure I saw was that as good as the Prius is, it only accounts for something like 1% of cars on the road. The superior technology of our Prii is meaningless if the numbers remain small. A 10% improvment in mileage and PZEV operation going into vast numbers of GM cars will mean more in the long run than any added efficiency from our more advanced Toyotas if middle-America isn't buying them. (Sadly, GM isn't rolling this into every car as standard, so this particular announcment hasn't the same weight that an announcement of a systematic changover to hybrid across their entire line would have, but every bit helps.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 06:48 PM) [snapback]260045[/snapback]</div>

Ask your neighbors who drive SUVs and other gas guzzlers why faster change isn't demaned, not me. I personally have been demanding faster change as long as I can remember. My father and I converted a Volkswagen Rabbit to pure electic back in the '80s. I vote for leaders who legislate lowering emissions and curbing consumption. I encouraged my representatives to back the Kyoto Protocol. I try to work at home as much as possible rather than commute. I bought a Prius when it was clear Toyota was serious about supporting them and I could afford one. Go ask someone else why faster change isn't being demanded, and you'll have your answer for why GM hasn't done more sooner. Apparently there hasn't been a demand for hybrids from the average car buyer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 06:48 PM) [snapback]260045[/snapback]</div>

Forced? No one is being forced to drive non-hybrids. In fact, in spite of record gas prices, people are still choosing to buy SUVs and other gas guzzlers only to commute to work in them. Alarmingly, that trend seems to be on the rise in Europe too. I don't know where you live, but a lot of the country doesn't want economical hybrids. They want their trucks, MiniVans, and SUVs. They'll buy hybrids when they can't afford their big cars anymore, but until that day arrives they'll continue to buy bigger vehicles by choice. Well, if GM can can sneak some hybrid technology into some of those vehicles, save a bit fuel or reduce emissions, and convince the average car buyer that hybrids aren't some weird fringe technology, more power to them.

As for the rest of the world, well they didn't get Prii a lot sooner than us... Japan about a year ahead, and Europe at the same time as the U.S., I think. Furthermore, there aren't any European hybrids on the market that I'm currently aware of, Honda's offerings are only 'mild hybrids', and there are no Korean hybrids to speak of. So clearly the 'rest of the world' isn't that far ahead of of U.S. car makers in terms of the 'big picture' as you make them out to be. GM has something coming out this summer, but I haven't heard anything from Land Rover, Mercedes Benz, Volvo, Porche, Saab, Jaguar, Volkswagen, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Mazda, or Nissan. Maybe you should go rant at them for a while.

My only point is that any savings of fuel and lowering emissions is good for us all. I don't really care that GM is taking baby steps as long as they do it. Congratulations to Toyota for being foresighted, and being ahead of the curve. That's why I voted with my wallet and bought one of their cars instead of a "mild" hybrid like Honda's, or simply a more fuel efficent gas-only car from Volkswagen. But kudos to GM for making a go of it... there are a lot of other car manufacturers out there that have nothing to offer at all.

Peter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 23 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]260111[/snapback]</div>

You haven't noticed a change?

The use of guzzlers has definitely dropped around here.

And the popularity of little cars, like Scion, has skyrocketed lately.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 23 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]260111[/snapback]</div>

How does that have any baring at all on Toyota's business goal of offering a hybrid option for all of their vehicles by 2012 and having production up to 1,000,000 annually by 2010?

Remember, many misconceptions of the past died just recently. So looking backward at trends isn't all that informative. And since demand is outpacing supply, there's simply no way to crunch numbers to figure out actual market want. Think of how many people are turned off by the fact that you have to place and order then wait. Then you have some that are desperately waiting for other choices, like a "full" hybrid minivan.

The point is that you never know until you try. Toyota is most definitely trying. The competition used to make fun of hybrids. Now with higher gas prices, they've had a change of heart. But the effort isn't exactly intense. What happened to the spirit of innovation? The exhilaration of a challenge has sadly been lost.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

I live in the SFO Bay Area, one of the highest per capita Prius locations in the country (I think only LA is higher.) I see a lot of Prii on the road, but the number of new large vehicles hasn't dropped in my estimation. Recently, another PriusChat member posted an article about a dealership in Washinton D.C. that was having trouble keeping larger SUVs and trucks in stock because of the demand (despite gasoline prices.) And in the more rural midwest, where trucks and SUVs are probably more of a necessity than here, there has been no appreciable decline in sales.

After the Memorial Day Weekend, which is apparently a big car buying period before summer, we'll have a better sense of whether the public is starting to change their mind about fuel economy. You are correct that the buying practices I quoted were looking back, but I'm afraid that it's not going to change much this weekend or the near future, despite the high gas prices. In fact, this morning on the way into work, Toyota's own radio ads made no mention of their Camry Hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, Prius, or the new Yaris. Instead, they were drawing attention to their Tundra Line, the 4Runner, "the new Larger RAV 4", and their "all new FJ Cruiser."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

It has no bearing at all. But the topic of discussion was GM's imminent release of mild hybrid vehicles this summer, and how the consensus among board members here was that their efforts were too little too late. Well, as I said before, kudos to any car company that goes hybrid to improve mileage and reduce emissions, including GM, even if their goals aren't as ambitious as Toyotas. And a double-hurrah to Toyota being so far thinking and ahead of the curve... I rewarded them for their efforts by buying one of their cars.

All I'm saying is don't slam GM for making an effort. If you want to complain about someone, go after Mercedes-Benz, Subaru, Nissan, Volvo, Volkswagen, Kia, Hyundai, Saab, Fiat, and a host of other manufacturers that haven't yet made *any* serious effort at reducing emissions or improving fuel economy, hybrid or otherwise. If you think GM is behind the curve, well then the other car companies are even further behind.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

Those who don't look at history and learn from it are doomed to repeat it. Look at the '70s gas crisis. It was direct foreshadowing for what's going on now. And yet, it led to an increased interest in economy cars and fuel savings that lasted for only about a decade. Then, through the growth in popularity of SUVs and the return of cheap gas, consumption went right back to what it was. Right now, gas prices are being driven mostly by demand outrunning refining capacity, and political jitters about Iran and instability in the Middle-East, and not a real lack of crude. If things settle down politically, and refining capacity increases, what makes you think anything will change at the end of this "gas crisis?"

The one thing that did change as a direct result of the gas crisis in the '70s was governmental tightening of emissions standards. Now that we're in another "gas crisis", and we have all pretty much decided that Global Warming is real, I would hope that public attention is enough that we can tighten emissions standards again. That's about the only thing that will keep hybrid technology alive in the broader market once the current supply issues and political issues smooth out.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

Demand for what, hybrids in general or Prii? While demand for Prii is outpacing supply, it's probably not true for hybrids in general. But even if it was, that's all the more reason to be glad that GM is taking a (albeit small) step in the right direction. Market-wide demand for hybrid technology will remain low as long as people think that it can't help the big cars they want, or worse, think it decreases vehicle performance. If GM can get some mild hybrid stuff into their line at a time when people's attention is somewhat better focused by the high cost of fuel, great.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

So how does that excuse sniping at or making fun of GM for trying? Better to make fun of Volvo's and it's recent ad campaign implying that, unlike other car companies, they encourage innovative thinking in house. And yet we don't see any hybrid or other fuel saving technologies coming out of their doors.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

Don't kid yourself. No car company is in it for the spirit of innovation or the exhilaration of a challenge. They're in it to sell cars. Toyota however chose to look a little further ahead than most. Note that (to Darelldd's chargrin ), they are not pursuing pure EV vehicles, or hydrogen. They decided to take a more incremental approach to reducing emissions and saving fuel: hybrid technology. And now GM has too. Good for them, good for me, good for you.

Peter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

By the way, when we were going through the process of buying our Prius, we spent quite a bit of time at the dealership looking at all the various cars on the lot. Interestingly, every current Scion model has (according to the window sticker anyway), worse emissions than the average car in its class. In fact the new RAV4 has better emissions than all of the Scion models. And Scion fuel consumption is only average in its class.

I asked the dealer why this was, and he said that Toyota wanted to keep the price of the Scion line down. The Scion is targeted at a younger audience looking to buy their first new car. For this group, price and styling were their number one and number two concerns. Consequently, these cars don't have the same engine computers or variable valve timing mechanics that regular Toyotas have.

I found it sad that fuel consumption and emissions aren't even at the front of list for the next generation of car buyers. Odd, as the period immediately after college is generally the most idealistic time of one's life. It seems to imply that the car buying priorities for the current generation growing up in the midst of Global Warming and high gas prices isn't all that different from the previous generations (In fact, it's similar enough to have a major car manufacturer base an entire line of vehicles on that premise.)

In another way, I found it doubly sad to think that Toyota, who I look upon as a forward looking company when it comes to emissions and fuel savings, could be responsible for producing such a 'dirty' line of cars. It just shows that (as I mentioned in a previous post) the bottom line for any car manufacturer is to sell cars. Even Toyota.

*Sigh*

So be aware that interest in small cars is not always an indicator of interest in better mileage or lower emissions. It is also an issue of price and styling. And if you are out looking at small cars and want to help the environment or reduce our dependence on foreign oil, be sure to look at those mileage numbers and emissions stickers.

Peter.

 

http://www.greenercars.com/byclass.html#COM

and then the next category of small wagons...

Scions are ranked in top 5. What I don't get is the PZEV cars don't necessarily rank better than ULEV or the tier X, bin X cars. Partial Zero emission vehicle must not mean what it says!

Any way to explain the differences? I'm just lost with the PZEV designation for a normal Otto-cycle gas-only cars. How is it possible?

Cheers,

Curt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 02:28 PM) [snapback]260464[/snapback]</div>

Obviously.

It frustrates me to no end when reporters pretend that a single factor is solely responsible for the purchase of a vehicle.

The trend toward smaller cars is absolutely inevitable. The swing to the opposite direction simply cannot be prevented. It's more a matter of to what degree, how much and for how long... not if.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]260454[/snapback]</div>

You make interesting assumptions.

Of course their purpose is to sell vehicles.

Whether or not they allow their engineers to indulge is a benefit. Toyota does, even allowing for retooling. GM places heavy restrictions, requiring the reuse of many components.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]260454[/snapback]</div>

Generalization is insincere at best. Clearly, we are ready to address the designs at a more fundamental level now. What for the new thread...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ May 24 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]260508[/snapback]</div>

PZEV is possible with just about any car with the right emissions equipment and the right kind of gas tank (to prevent evaporative losses). That's why you have PZEV BMWs and Ford Explorers and Chevy Cobalts. Anyone can do it, it's just more expensive to do so, which is why you usually see them in CARB markets.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]260454[/snapback]</div>

I've only been back to the SF Bay Area myself for about 1.5 years I have to say, I see tons of HUGE SUVs on the road here. It's crazy! For the time I've been back, I haven't noticed a significant decline or change in terms of large SUVs. There % seems much higher than in WA state (where I lived for 7.5 years) and in Southern Cal where I visited earlier in the month (and I lived long ago for 4.5 years).

From http://www.autonews.com/files/1205totveh.pdf, for 2005, 16.9 million vehicles were sold in the US. 7.9 million were cars and 9 million were light trucks. There's only been a modest decline in the % of light trucks sold vs. cars compared to 2004. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/01/05/314644.html has a table covering 2004 and 2003. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/LightTruckFleet.htm has a table of the % of light trucks making up the US light duty vehicle fleet for 1979-2004.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 12:28 PM) [snapback]260464[/snapback]</div>

Interestingly, I looked up the whole Scion lineup (w/automatics) and compared it to a 4 cylinder 4WD automatic RAV4 on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm. You're basically right. Although the Scions produce fewer tons of greenhouse gasses, they all have far lower EPA pollution scores than the RAV4. I'm a little surprised here too.

However, I seriously doubt a teenager looking for a car would pick one car over another or refuse to buy a particular make/model over emissions. I don't think the parents would care that much either. From a business perspective, I think Toyota's priorities for Scion were correct. They also wanted another brand that younger people would think is more "hip" and be more appealing to the tuner community where there were more mods available (think Honda Civic and Acura Integra/RSX crowd).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 23 2006, 11:02 AM) [snapback]243991[/snapback]</div>

I agree with the points you are making, but have to comment that (in my opinion) the problems GM is facing are due to 'sorta' getting it for several decades now.

 

At what point does the term "vaporware" no longer apply?

If disappointing reviews continue to plague Vue-Hybrid GreenLine, the Vue-Hybrid Two-Mode coming later this year could overshadow it so much people won't even realize there was originally a different design available. GM may quietly let production dwindle in favor of the much more capable model.

Obviously, I'll be hoping that happens. The pitiful emissions rating of only LEV makes the label of "green" totally inappropriate anyway. But now that the MPG numbers are rolling in and they look ugly, the party is over. Let the better design have the spotlight exclusively.

Two hybrid models so different was never a good idea. Consumers have a hard enough time already making sense of the choices available. Figuring out how one will perform in real-world driving based on those misleading EPA estimates and considering how important the price tag is, while at the same time watching the volatile cost of gas, is simply too much.

Competition in this market will heat up. The weak face quite a challenge.

 

I reference GM because those are the cars I've driven. The last Chrysler in the family was a 73 New Yorker and the last Ford was a 60 stattion wagon.

Passenger cars have been getting smaller since the 80's so if the buyer wanted something with the same capacity one had to go to a van, truck, or SUV.

The criteria for the purchase of a new car included: Same payload, Smaller size (less to wax), Better mpg. I can pack the same amount of stuff in my 2006 Prius as I can in my 2000 Oldsmobile. Both are midsize cars. The Prius is 21 inches shorter, 6 inches narrower, and just a shade taller. The Olds gets 25mpg, the Prius 49mpg, a 96% improvement. As an added plus I should have lower maintenance with the Prius.

It's good news that Saturn will increase their mpg by 10%. I really hope that benefits someone. I just think that it is too little, too late. If they tried to offer me a car that gets 27.5mpg I'd have said no thanks.

It is unfortunate that GM doesn't understand QUALITY. They are replacing the plastic doors with metal. So now the Saturn buyer can pay $1000 more (maybe) for 10% better mpg and less quality. What happens when they don't sell? GM will say, "See, we told you Americans don't want hybrids."

Now for some "Toyota bashing": Why couldn't the Prius have dent resistant plastic doors?

For the record, if my Prius had as many problems as my Olds I'd probably be accused of Toyota bashing. IMHO recounting personal experiences is not "bashing". To those who think it is, stop whining and put your effort into getting better cars built.