Saturn Vue hybrid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kingofgix @ Apr 25 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]245099[/snapback]</div>

Snort!

Maybe his SUV requires super ultra duper 110 octane? That could account for the price per gallon difference.

 

Cosmo,

I'm going to rip apart some of your post piece by piece. I apologize ahead of the time, but I believe I get the courtesy to since you took it yourself. You come off as a bit smug yourself.



"First of all please enter the real world. Normal average everyday consumers really don't give a rats nice person about hybrids, they really don't - "

Explain this:

http://priuschat.com/Gallup-Surprise-Most-...ars-t18185.html

(57% of Americans are interested in purchasing a hybrid as their next vehicle).

"and quite frankly, the average American can't run out and drop $25-$35K on a brand new hybrid like the Prius of Ford Escape, let alone the Lexus."

You've got a point there... but no one said they had to.

Also, the average price of a new car is over $20k:
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_average_newcar_price/

"Most people I work with know next to nothing about hybrids, and are not inclined to buy them."

In that case, because most don't know much about them.

"Most people I know, absolutely MOST are not interested in small efficient vehicles. They like 6 cylinder mid size cars. What, you think telling people that you will get 50 mpg will make them willing to buy a car with 110 HP, come on; get of your high falutin' arrogant hybrid happy high horses."

I'm not contending your first two statements - I actually think it's a sad state of affairs that self-image is tied to our vehicles ("machismo").

I don't derive my self-esteem from a freaking cartoon. I can't prove the following statement, but one can deduce that on average hybrid owners have higher IQ's than the norm (given the market that has typically gone for them... more technically minded, geared to technology, etc). Yes, I may be smug. But it's warranted. GASP - yes I said it! And I stand by what I just said!!!! (What I'm not doing is being politically correct)


"If GM can put a car out with a $1000 premium that gets an extra 10-20% MPG so that the consumer may actually save money over the life of the car, that's great, and it will move us a little bit closer to energy independence. By the way, at best it is marginal as to whether or not the Prius will save you any money over the long haul. I did the calculations versus the Matrix, and I would only break even after about 7-8 years. "

Deja vu - I've heard this one before... and I've said this same response years ago: you buy the Prius for the package as well as the fuel economy. But you're right ~ Toyota would greatly benefit hybrid technology by reducing the pricetag.

Also, why not keep it 10 years? At that point it also means much more than just economical sense.

"If GM were to put a very mild hybrid system across there entire fleet, basically just create an idle stop system that shuts down cylinders of their 6 and 8 cylinder models, they could probably increase their entire fleet efficiency by 15% with MINIMAL increase to the cost of the vehicle. Besides the proper application of hybrid technology is in more fuel thirsty vehicles. See the attached spreadsheet for an example. Put mild hybrids in SUV's and get an efficiency gain of 15% and you will save more gas per year then the Prius does."

No argument there. But the savings would be far greater for those people who NEVER NEED ALL THAT SPACE if they went to a midsize Prius or other more fuel efficient vehicle.

"Personally, I think people who answered this particular forum just don't get it. You drive the Pius and suffer from too much smug. You used this forum as nothing other then an outlet to bash GM (though most of the time they do deserve it). Get in touch with people in the real world who aren’t enamored by all the uber-tech."


Who said we would never support a $14k hybrid?

Anyways, like I said earlier:
- a bit of the smug is warranted.
- I don't derive my self-esteem or self-image from a cartoon, let alone you

Also, what else would you expect? Go to you a Ford fan site and I'm sure you'll see some bashing of other auto manufacturers by someone. Same for any number of enthusiasts.

"And yes, I do own a Prius, I just don’t think it’s the solution to all the worlds problems."

Agreed. There's more to the world than autos. But when it comes to autos I think that hybrids (whether mild or up to PHEV's) are or will eventually become the solution.

Oh one more thing. If someone buys a GM vehicle and uses E85, they will be using less oil then the vaulted Prius."

I think others have already contended that argument.

 

Off topic alert! (sorry)

About this whole smug issue: quite frankly I'm getting sick of it... but how is that pride only became a crime when it was attributed to liberals???? How is smugness any different from, let's say, someone telling someone else they are going to hell for their beliefs? It implies that the accuser is 'smug in his beliefs'... IMO.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 25 2006, 05:17 PM) [snapback]245199[/snapback]</div>

With much irony, it was the SUVs drivers whom were smug first. They rode in their high chairs radiating "I'm an all-powerful large tank that can haul through all back-country when I want so back off!" image, along with the American "I don't care about MPG nor sharing" attitude. Hummers are the common symbol of that attitude.

Breaking it down, it's all about image, and the Prius sure wasn't the first vehicle on the block to chase that.

 

Back to the VUE....

One small step for improving the earth...one large leap for GM.

I have a Vue but its not green. I was looking forward to replacing my 4 Cyl Vue with a Greenline but after learning about the MPG I said forget. The Saturn dealer told me the Greenline won't come close to the Toyota models (with regards to MPG). What also gets me is that Saturn is doing away with the impact resistant doors in favor of traditional metal. They are doing this so they can improve the built time on the cars - stupid. They (GM) has an awesome opportunity to turn Saturn around by coming out with a better hybrid product with light weight impact resistant door. Just blows me away that they can't change....

I know this doesn't add a lot to this discussion but I had to get this off my chest...
b

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 25 2006, 07:17 PM) [snapback]245199[/snapback]</div>

I was sickened 6 years ago, when my Prius delivery wait began.

SUV owners were horribly smug. Hearing the statement "it's only a car" when referring to Prius was very disheartening. A few even freaked out with the impression that I was leading a campaign to force them out of their SUV, clearly not understanding how the technology actually worked.

Then it got worse. They started using the term "car" for refer to their SUV, a crude attempt make their truck an acceptable vehicle for non-truck purposes (like their daily commute to the office).

Needless to say, I've been dealing with smugness and disingenious intent for far too long now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Apr 25 2006, 04:17 PM) [snapback]245115[/snapback]</div>

john, considering where they (GM) are right now (way the F behind) in the hybrid game this is about the best that they could be expected to do. It's a good thing, especially if they were to introduce it across all lines. They won't, at least not for a while. If it exposes more people to hybrids, great. hopefully it won't be flop.

I agree that it's setting the bar way too low, but GM is really going to have to play catch up. They've sunk everything into FCV and there's no way that that's gonna save the company. It's too far out and the volumes won't float the company (nevermind the infrastructure issues, and assuming that BEVs and PHEVs don't make them pointless).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Apr 25 2006, 07:25 PM) [snapback]245234[/snapback]</div>

Well, Tony, to be picky, there's technically no gasoline in ANWR, just a lotta oil. But, yeah, your pretty close. In the 50% case peak production from ANWR is something like 900K barrels per day. About 4% of our daily consumption. Of course, it'll take 10 years to get to that level (if we started now) and by then it would be less if we maintain the status quo. It might actually make more sense later than now. Hopefully, we'll never be forced to be so short sighted.

Even in the 5% case (15 billion barrels recoverable), if we could get all of the ANWR oil as fast as we wanted, we'd deplete the field(s) in 2 years!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cosmo @ Apr 25 2006, 01:23 PM) [snapback]245026[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 25 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]245090[/snapback]</div>

I am "happy" to drive my car. The term smug gets applied to us because we are happy with our vehicles and not losing sleep over the higher gas prices the way some of these folks are doing with their gas hogs. You could hope that this would be a first step and that further research will improve what they are offering but GM's history does not support them taking that approach.

 

Also, the analysis on the Camry hybrid vs the 4 cylinder is completely flawed given the arguments cosmos proposed.

Take a stand ~ are you (or your view of the average American) for horsepower or fuel economy? Because, by argument, you can't (in terms of debate) claim all this nonsense about Americans only caring about V6 power and whatnot, then completely turn around and compare the Camry hybrid to the 4 cylinder version. Not only does the Camry hybrid have the best fuel economy (both highway and city), it has greater power than the four cylinder.

Some people (like cosmos and other critics; and others have pointed this out though I suppose I'm taking it on from a different angle) either ONLY look at horsepower or ONLY look at fuel economy at their selective convenience. Judging a hybrid? Look ONLY at the fuel economy and ONLY at the horsepower of the less powerful ones (though they perform extremely well in the real world). Judging a typical car? Look ONLY at horsepower when it favors your viewpoint.

The counterargument to this ill-conceived point of view is to look at the hybrid vehicle as a package: best emissions, improved performance, and best fuel economy (as a consumer). You don't just look at one and decide the validity of the vehicle based on only one aspect (which, mind you, is one of the damn good aspects of the vehicle).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Apr 25 2006, 06:17 PM) [snapback]245115[/snapback]</div>

[begin sarcasm]

Smog-related emissions? This is America, who cares about that stuff? We're American's, we can do whatever we want. It's a free country!

[end sarcasm]

First - Great site. And I couldn't agree more. While my focus on a new vehicle was all about my personal savings, I am happy about the other benefits and that will be a focus of any future purchase.

Maybe we should start educating kids on stuff like this in school? Cut out a little of history maybe and add in some stuff on the environment and how we have limited resources, before the planet IS history.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Apr 25 2006, 05:36 PM) [snapback]245040[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps my math is off here, but how in heck is adding 26 mpg in the city (108% improvement) and 5 mpg (15% improvement) in the highway only a 29% improvement overall? If the combined mpg is around 27-28 for the 4 cyl and 38-39 for the hybrid, that is a 36%-44% improvement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal @ Apr 26 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]245562[/snapback]</div>

I'm using the combined MPG, and it would seem your math is off.

 

Many have already pointed out some of the fallacies in your post, but there are a couple I want to add to or reiterate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cosmo @ Apr 25 2006, 05:23 PM) [snapback]245026[/snapback]</div>

The recent polls/surveys suggest you are wrong on this. My own experience with people I know agrees that people are becoming more conscious of gas prices and hybrids. I have a friend who is looking at downsizing their large SUV and my dad recently bought a used 4cyl to save on gas (he wanted a hybrid, but didnt' want to buy that new of a vehicle). Both of these happened within the last month and both are working class average consumers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cosmo @ Apr 25 2006, 05:23 PM) [snapback]245026[/snapback]</div>

The proper application IMO, is for all vehicles, gas thirsty or not. If there is a way to improve every vehicle's efficiency by 25% or more and reduce it's emission, why not do it? Even if the car starts with a relatively high mpg, how is this not a proper application?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cosmo @ Apr 25 2006, 05:23 PM) [snapback]245026[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps some numbers on this would be nice. It would seem though that anyone car that gets less than 85% of the mileage that the Prius gets (42.5 assuming 50mpg, 38.25 assuming 45) would be using more oil with E85.

The E85 is still using 85% gasoline, which does come from oil I believe. I don't believe there are any GM Cars that get even 38.25 with E85, so it doesn't seem to really hold up.




Polls are beginning to suggsest that

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal @ Apr 26 2006, 01:16 PM) [snapback]245577[/snapback]</div>

Ssssh... but the 85 in E85 means it's 85% ethanol. Ethanol comes from corn, grass, whatever.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Apr 26 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]245652[/snapback]</div>

It's very doable... switchgrass.

http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/MagRack/SF/Fall%2091%20L.htm

 

Frankly, the attitudes in this threat disappoint me.

There are many valid hybrid designs. Honda's IMA is a highly effective system that builds on their engine technology to deliver excellent performance (look at the Civic hybrid to see that).

GM's "Vue Green Line" isn't really a hybrid at all in my opnion. It's an evolution of existing technology - replacing the alternator/starter with a motor that can provide enoguh power to be useful (to a limited degree) to get the vechile moving.

That said, the new Vue does deliver a noticable economy increase with minimal cost addition. Is it revolutionary? No. Is it going to save the world? No. But the Prius isn't going to save the world either. Improving fuel economy even 10% can have a major impact on our current engery challenges.

Judge vehicle technologies by their impact on emissions and consumption. The new Vue may not be a revolution, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsoft @ May 1 2006, 04:45 AM) [snapback]247856[/snapback]</div>

That would be a valid point if the automotive industry worked the same way as the computer industry. But it doesn't. In fact, it's not even close. Rather than a continuous flow of small steps as we see with computers, we only get a large step once in a great while.

In other words, automakers tend to resist change the to bitter end, rather than embrace it. So once they make a decision to commit to a new technology, you're stuck with it for a very very long time.

That's why Toyota is revolutionizing the industry. Their approach to deliver major upgrades every few years is completely unheard of. The competition originally considered a move like that business suicide. But now that they are witnessing unprecedented success, the risk appears to be well worth it... but far too late to effectively compete with. Oops!

With that having been said, step back and look at the big picture. Computers are designed to support upgrades. That's not true for the traditional vehicles we drive. Even the "assist" hybrid technology is an admitted dead-end. It was never intended to be electrically augmented like the "full" hybrids. Neither the automaker nor the consumers plan to take "assist" any further than just minor tweaks. But with "full", there is quite a bit of experimenting currently taking place to find out what the best way is to dramatically enhance the electrical abilities already built into that system's design.

Always stay focused on the long-term goals. Don't fall victim to short-term achievements, because sometimes they aren't helpful... which is what those already speaking out against the "Green Line" are trying to explain.