Saturn Vue 2-Mode

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Mar 22 2007, 02:56 PM) [snapback]410453[/snapback]</div>

Why? Because GM is full of it. :lol:

They (GM's Marketing) complaint about the HSD's complexity because they want to say gas car is better, where as hybrid is nothing but hype.

When the sales figures say otherwise, they turn tail to try to make a better hybrid. If it is really better is still to be seen (until it is in the consumer's hand).

Of course, they now say the HSD is still crap... this is how you really make a hybrid... ie 2Mode hybrid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Mar 22 2007, 05:56 PM) [snapback]410453[/snapback]</div>

I think the problem with HSD's 'complexity' is that you can't just drop it into a car and go.. it's undeniably a big and bulky unit.

2Mode does more than HSD, yet is smaller and fits just about anywhere. By that definition, it's way less complex to package and deploy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 22 2007, 06:17 PM) [snapback]410503[/snapback]</div>

But in reality, that doesn't mean squat unless they actually do it.

That may not reflect any savings in production cost either. Benefit long-term typically comes from having taken the complete replace approach rather than partial upgrade.

 

Hi Johnycat,

The 2 Mode Hybrid system is considerably more complicated than the HSD. The complexity is used to allow both motors to be low torque, higher rpm motors. Unlike the Prius which has the very high torque MG2. Its the HSD simiplicity, that makes it bulky on the MG2 end. As its simpler, the HSD is probably cheaper. But then those magnets in the MG2 do not come for free either. Which is why they made the magnets smaller in the HSD (over the THS) and use more induction field.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 22 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]410518[/snapback]</div>

I have to be honest here John, you usually speak in these cryptic weird non-human riddles... but how is, and I think you meant to say a long term benefit, not a benefit long-term, 2Mode a partial upgrade? It does everything HSD does, and more, in a simpler package.

 

Yes, taking quotes out of context will do that. By ignoring this... "That may not reflect any savings in production cost either." ...you attempted to elude the point of the question.

HSD is quite likely to prove to be cheaper.

Get it? That's a big deal, especially important with the more efficient next generation on the way.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 22 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]410577[/snapback]</div>

Have any data to support this?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 22 2007, 09:00 PM) [snapback]410588[/snapback]</div>

Attempting to change the focus of the discussion rather than responding to Post #20

That's interesting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 22 2007, 10:07 PM) [snapback]410592[/snapback]</div>

Attempting to change the focus of the discussion rather than responding to my question.

That's telling.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 22 2007, 09:38 PM) [snapback]410607[/snapback]</div>

I asked first. Politely too.

No matter. guitarlix recently noticed your posting pattern. More will as well if you keep it up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 22 2007, 10:49 PM) [snapback]410614[/snapback]</div>

Haha... dude, how many people over there have asked you to politely knock it off? And yet, you don't. Take this private if you want to continue this, there's no need to take this thread further off topic, unless you're afraid to take it private for some reason.

 

Perhaps someone else can confirm your summer availability claim.

After all, that is on topic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 23 2007, 10:08 AM) [snapback]410562[/snapback]</div>

Code:

                     HSD   2-mode
===================  ====  ======
Motor/Generator:     two   two
Planetary Gear set:  one   two
Clutches:            none  three
===================  ====  ======

For me, the HSD is far simpler than 2-mode.

Ken@Japan

 

It's interesting watching you guys bat the issue back and forth, but why don't we just wait and see what it's like if/when it comes out? I mean for the time being 2Mode is still vapor - if it ever comes into daylight, then hats off to GM!

GM does seem to be using the "2 is better than 1" tactic when marketing their system and for many truck drivin' folks I'm sure that's enough to sway them. After these vechicles have been on the road for a year then we'll know if 2Mode is better than HSD in any respect. Even then it might be an apples vs. oranges comparison since the current HSD systems haven't been scaled to the largest vehicles (Yukon == large.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ari @ Mar 23 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]410719[/snapback]</div>

Waiting is not realistic, because efforts to downplay the design continue to be posted. Like this: "Wrong. With HSD one electric motor generates power, and one sends power to the drivetrain." And my response was...

MG1 = Motor/Generator #1 is primarily responsible for generating electricity, but also sends power to the engine for starting.

MG2 = Motor/Generator #2 is primarily responsible for sending power to the wheels, but is also used for generating electricity when braking.

Then that got twisted with this reply: "So essentially MG2 does it all and MG1 is a glorified starter motor? Interesting." Which is clearly not what I said. But since the desire to make the upcoming competition seem more appealing is so strong, some repeatedly attempt to mislead & undermine. How would you deal with that?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 23 2007, 08:54 AM) [snapback]410804[/snapback]</div>

I know how you feel man - but these same people are going to keep coming back and posting FUD even after they sell their Priuses and get a 2Mode Yukon. Most people on this board recognize what a great system HSD is - try not to take it personally even if you're misquoted. (We also deal with the "Hummer is better than Prius" stories every day, but it would be best to let those threads die.)

The fact is most people find hybrids about as appealing as non-fat cheese, so anything that gets people to even consider a hybrid vehicle is a good thing. 2Mode surely has a lot of hype at the moment, but at least it's a hybrid system.

Hang in there! B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 22 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]410202[/snapback]</div>

The 2007 Vue "hybrid" is what the Union of Concerned Scientists call a "hollow Hybrid", meaning it's just marketing crap, not a real hybrid. The 2008 Vue may be a real hybrid if GM follows thru on it's promise. They call it a two-stage hybrid. It's small and compact only in GM's universe, not in the world's universe. They are putting two planetary gearsets and a four speed transmission in the same volume as their normal transmission. For comparison, Prius uses one planetary gearset period. The only clever thing about the design is the fact that gearshifting take place when the gears in question are not moving: when MG1 is crossing from CW to CCW for example.