Sabertec Blade - any good on a Prius?

That sounds like a pretty good test. I don't think I saw anything like that in any of the literature. But, they do have testing at an EPA certified laboratory. From what I can tell, its a nationally recognized one as well. I would say there could be under the counter work, but being certified, i doubt that.

On another note, I got to thinking about it and I can't recall any automotive product that I know of going through that type of testing. Is that something a lot of automakers do? Once you explained it, I remember those commercials that talk about double blind studys on weight loss pills. lol.

 

Watching this thread develop is like watching a runaway truck careen in
slow motion towards a crosswalk full of school kids. You just know what's
going to happen, but you pray the Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Santa
Claus, anybody or thing will intercede. I guess that's too much to hope for.

carguy_12,

Why are you being so evasive? If the name of the lab is in your "data," why
not just tell us. If it's not in the "data," how can you tell with any certainty
that "its a nationally recognized one as well?"

 

That one guy. I uploaded to his FTP all the information. I'm not being evasive at all. He said very specifically he would make the information available. Ask him . I have no reason to hide anything. I honestly don't care. I mean, i don't give two hoots whether you guys believe me or not. Since i don't work for sabertec, there are no repercussions to me.

The reason I'm still here is because I do believe in this product and there is evidence to support those beliefs. If anyone has any real questions and stops trying to accuse me of being full of it, I would love it.

But for the sake of giving you the information you requested immediately.

Blade: Test Results--EPA511

That is a link to the testing. The guy with the FTP has a pdf format of the testing.

Here is a direct quote from one of the people involved in the testing from one of the pdf files.

"While a fuel economy improvement of only 2.0% to 8.0% may
seem small this is a significant achievement in comparison to
other fuel saving devices that promise large fuel savings but
have not shown any repeatable positive benefit in controlled
testing.
Automotive manufacturers expend considerable effort to make
improvements in fleet fuel economy in this range and the
ability of The Blade to provide this level of improvement in
an aftermarket, consumer installable device is remarkable."

- Linwood E Farmer Jr, Vice President, ATDS

http://www.automotivetesting.com/

 

What exactly did this EPA certified lab actually test for? Was it for increased mpg in a Prius or was it tested that no additional pollution was emitted? (Think how easy it is to fool people with the following statement: "Increases mpg by 10%. Tested at EPA certified lab." - The mpg claim is for the one test and the EPA test is for something completely different.)

For most automakers, if you get something wrong or overlook something, your competition takes advantage of it and takes away your business. So yes, they do this type of testing, expecially in marketing studies of car designs or what looks better. However, if they do this they want to keep the results to themselves, so you do not hear much about it.

In the audio world, super expensive, elaborate speaker cables became quite the rage. How does one really know if the cables make a difference? (You have people listen to a song made multiple times with the cables switched in and out without them seeing.) All the expensive cable manufacturers will not do this testing. Why?

 

I'm glad you asked that. A real question . There are actually many tests that showed different results. I'll go through them the best I can. Im going to try and copy and paste directly from the .pdf. It just does the job better then I could explain it..

"The Blade's laboratory fuel economy and emission testing was conducted by Automotive Testing and Development Services, Inc. (ATDS), a California
based independent testing laboratory which is accepted by the United
States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and is licensed by the California Air Resources Board (CARB). EPA 511 TESTING OF BLADE AT ATDS, ONTARIO CA

CARB is considered to be one of the strictest “clean air”
agencies in the country. BLADE was also tested at LACTEC Laboratories in Curitiba, Brazil. BOTH LABS ARE CONSIDERED TO BE PREMIER EMISSIONS TESTING AND CERTIFICATION LABORATORIES."

The EPA 511 Testing Protocol is a combination of the EPA's
FTP-75 and High-way Fuel Economy Tests.
The EPA 511 test Protocol is the most rigorous EPA recognized
test procedure in existence, and it is the only test
procedure that the EPA considers statistically valid.
In other words, the EPA 511 Protocol is the GOLD STANDARD in
emissions testing.

The EPA has established guidelines which help determine the
size of the test fleet and whether test results with subject
device should be considered encouraging.

These values are chosen to assure that a real difference in
emissions or fuel economy exists and do not reflect random
variability of results.

The table below presents the minimum number of cars needed to
test varying degrees of fuel economy improvement assuming a
typical amount of variability in fuel economy measurement.

Fleet Size Average Improvement Required:
2 6%
3 5%
4 4%
5 3%
10 2%

Testing using the EPA 511 Protocol shows gas mileage increases of as much as 6 MPG. Consumer experiences on a wide variety of cars, light duty trucks and SUV’s in the U.S., Europe and Latin America have resulted in gas mileage increase up to:

• 34% on 4 cylinder cars, e.g. Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, Ford Focus, etc.
• 21% on light duty trucks and SUV’s, e.g. Ford F250’s, Chevy Avalanches, Range Rovers, etc.
• 16% on dual exhaust 8-cylinder sedans, e.g. Lincoln Town Cars, Crown Victorias, etc.
• 24% on 10 cylinder Box-style trucks, i.e. moving trucks.

Blade: Test Results--EPA511 summarizes the test results

http://www.bladeyourride.com/images/ATDS Results.jpg shows the actual test results.

Hopefully, what it said above covers this part of your question as well.

 

On another note, my blade should be in tommorow, and ill be happy to post up my own results with the product promptly. My car has the digital readout, so it should work nicely in seeing positive benefits.

Even if all the hoopla about reversion waves and volumetric efficiency turned out to not be true, the product would still heat up your cats faster lowering emissions and improving gas mileage during cold starts. And, it still acts as a particle filter which is good for the environment without creating backpressure.

 

Access to the files in question!!!

I am indeed 'that one guy' who offered my FTP to house the files.
Any of you can obtain the files that were posted by carguy_12 at this location: ftp://[email protected]

User: priuschat
Pass: priuschat

That link should work for Internet Explorer and Windows Explorer. If you are using a FTP client, you know what to do with that information. FYI: I personally use Firefox and have had issues in the past with this particular FTP site.

Sorry if anyone has issues with download speed. I never have issues using this FTP but it is on my personal internet connection (DSL ) so I have no guaranteed up bandwidth.

If anyone has issues, I can try to help or if everyone has issues, I'll move the files elsewhere for access.

NOTE: These files have not been touched / altered by me. THAT INCLUDES NO VIRUS SCAN. They are exactly as posted by carguy_12

(Not that I think they are infected but I don't accept any responsibility if they are).

 

Muahhaha. Viruses for everyone!!!!

 

Hi all. I'm new here, but I found this thread while googling for information about the Blade. Since it pains me to see so many people being swindled, I thought I would offer my thoughts, cross-posted from a different forum:

I'm watching the 'How it works' video at the moment.

Quick note before I reply: I like the term 'bad dirty exhaust gas.'

Alright then, I'll take this one step at a time.

First some clarification: volumetric efficiency is a mass ratio of how much air gets into the cylinder versus the displacement volume of the cylinder filled with air at atmospheric pressure. To give an example, if a cylinder can contain 1 gram of air at atmospheric pressure, but in operation only .9 grams of air actually make it into the cylinder, you would say that this engine has a volumetric efficiency of 90%. It is possible to have a volumetric efficiency greater than 100% through the use of forced induction.


Moving on, the first thing I notice is a contradiction between the website and video. CO2, while we may consider it a pollutant, is a byproduct of combustion, even if it is perfect combustion. Unlike NOx, hydrocarbons, particulates, and CO, it is not something you can reduce or get rid of with better engines/exhaust conditioning. The only practical way to reduce CO2 emissions is to burn less fuel. There is no conceivable way that the Blade can affect the engine to cause it to run more efficiently, which would be necessary in order to burn less fuel. Of course, increasing the volumetric efficiency might be one way, but we'll get to that in a minute.


The first half of the video is relatively alright. The second half is where it gets bad.

Contrary to what the video might have you believe, exhaust gas residual is not always a "bad dirty thing." Engines are expected to and indeed designed to have some amount of residual exhaust. You may have heard of exhaust gas recirculation. This is a purposeful rerouting of exhaust gases back to the intake. This is done primarily for efficiency reasons, and it is well understood and desirable. During idle conditions engines can have as much as 30% EGR, possibly even greater. It is acknowledged and accommodated in the design of an engine. It is not the kind of problem it is made out to be in the video.

'Backsliding,' as they call it, is NOT a source of pumping losses. It is not typically of great concern. Exhaust gas residual is caused partially by the limited flowrate of exhaust gases past the exhaust valve, and partially because of the clearance volume in the cylinder. Even when the piston is at its highest position, there is still some gas left at the top of the cylinder. The greater problem at this stage in the cycle is valve overlap, where exhaust gases can travel out of the intake valve and vice versa. The details are not important, but suffice to say that anything you stick on the end of your exhaust system will have little effect here.


The next segment reeks of pseudoscience. The graphs they show are worthless. The provide no actual data, and the qualitative information content is lackluster at best. Although they misspelled it once or twice, this entire segment of the video refers to what is called 'scavenging,' or in a broader sense you can say 'exhaust tuning.'

They were more or less correct that there are pressure pulses occurring in the exhaust system. Scavenging, in a nutshell, is all about tuning the exhaust so that these pressure pulses arrive in such a way that the negative pressure peak is right at the exhaust valve opening, which decreases the pressure at the exhaust valve opening and helps pull exhaust gases out. You want the pressure wave and reflected pulse to be out of phase at this point. That much they got correct, sort of.

However, the timing and shaping of these pulses depending on the geometry of the exhaust system fairly close to the engine. Pressure waves are set up in the exhaust manifold due to the pulsed flow from the engine. When these waves reach a restriction or the end of a passage (such as the junction where the exhaust runners meet), a pressure pulse is reflected in the opposite direction. The wavelength of the pulse is determined by the pulse frequency (engine speed), so any exhaust tuning done will work best at one particular engine speed. The length of the runners is primarily what determines the pulse timing.

Keep in mind also that the most significant restriction in a modern exhaust system is typically the catalytic converter. Downstream of the cat(s), the exhaust is essentially at atmospheric pressure.

What does all of this mean for the Blade? For starters it means that it will be utterly inconsequential as far as scavenging is concerned. It is useless. It is way too far downstream of the engine to have any effect on the scavenging process. Considering that this is the only possible way for it to do ANYTHING besides increase backpressure (which it must do to some extent, otherwise I don't buy their claim that it filters particulate matter), my conclusion is 'nice try, better luck next time.'

Of course, since it can't do any of that, it sure as hell can't save you any gas.


Actually, a small revision. It would probably be more correct to say that the catalytic converter is the greatest restriction next to the exhaust valves. Just a minor nitpick.

One a few more things: even if the Blade DID improve the scavenging process (which it doesn't), it will be extremely hit and miss. Every car is different. Every engine is different. Exhaust tuning only works for a specific engine model and exhaust system. If you take the same thing and stick it on another car, you may get no improvement or you may get a decrease in performance. To suggest that the Blade will work across the board, even if it worked at all, is absurd and the final nail in the coffin.

It is also worth mentioning that any gasoline-fueled engine that is operating properly will have essentially no particulate matter. PM is a problem with diesel engines, where you can have zones of an extremely rich mixture and the fuel is only partially burned. This is what produces PM, otherwise known as soot. For spark ignition engines this is basically a non-issue.


I only have a Senior level IC engines class under my belt, but I thought I could tackle this 'invention.' Take care.

 

carguy_12,

Thanks for identifying the testing lab.

The above info, provided by Sabertec, says that the EPA 511 Protocol
requires that a minimum of two cars be tested. Yet, Sabertec says that it
tested only one vehicle, a Honda Civic.

From this I conclude that the Blade was tested on a single vehicle, using the
511 test methodology, but not under the full 511 Protocol. To my mind this
is slicing the boloney awfully thin. It is a very clever misrepresentation.

It's not up to us to prove that the claims are wrong. It's up to Sabertec or
the self-appointed champion to demonstrate clearly that they are valid. You
haven't.

Your "Viruses for everyone!" sure was a slick move. Whether it's true or not,
made in good humor or foul, with it, both you and Sabertec lost what little
creditability you may have enjoyed up to that point.

 

Thanks, but we would only be swindled if we bought the Blade and I think everyone here with the exception of Carguy_12 is either extremely skeptical or thinks it is outright fraud.

 

As far as I understand, they tested multiple vehicles using the 511 protocal. I will try to find the rest of the test results as I do not have them currently. You could be right for all I know. If they only tested one vehicle and the testing requires at least two, it would definitely be shady tactics to say they passed the protocal. And give me a break on the whole viruses comment. I was merely making a joke which you wanted to have no part of. Its not like the atmosphere around some of you guys is not already stuffed up enough... edit. On another note. I was checking on their website and it seems their will be a big press release tomorrow that includes all the other cars tested and all the other information you requested.

 

On another note to that question. No one here has tried the product including myself. Being skeptical is a good thing, not a bad thing. Being downright hard headed is another. I am not asking anyone out there to try a blade. I was only trying to be on the other side of the argument. It sure is easy bashing products that you know nothing about. This is not related to any of the posters in this forum, but people in general. I honestly hope for the best to these types of companies and all others who are trying to make a difference on an environmental stand point. Like i said in a previous post. It is a fact that the blade passed CARB testing which means it does not produce discernible back pressure. Therefore, it is a particulate filter which cleans up the unburned gas and other particulates coming out of your exhaust system. This enough is good enough for me.

 

There is something to be learned, so let us support completion to a conclusion.

Carguy, If you set up a test, let us know what the details are, and how you are ensuring it is completely unbiased (which is harder than you might think).

 

Well it ends up the exhaust system on my car is too large for the default blade to fit. 3" pipe ftl. I am waiting for an adapter to be sent out to me as we speak.

I drive about 50,000 miles a year and I have been measuring my gas mileage every fill up since I have owned this car. I have an idea of what it gets in the summer, what it gets in the winter and so on.

My main test will be driving down the same stretch of highway in both directions about 25-50 miles in each direction. I will reset my digital before each test. They will be done on the same day one test after another. The test will not be started until the car is warmed up.

Any other things you guys can think of?

 

According to the website here: Blade Your Ride: What It Does. , the adapter you are referring to is so that you can mount two of the Blade devices.

"You have a tailpipe larger than 2 1/4 inches. In this case you will need to get a split-ter adapter on which you can mount 2 Blades."

So...
Two blades @ $200 each = $400
Additional Y adapter = $ 25

Total investment = $425.00 Quite an investment just to see if it works.

Every 5,000 miles, new filters X 2 (because two blades) = $40

I don't like math and it's about my bedtime so I'll let everyone speculate but I'm pretty sure that the costs already outweigh any benefits in fuel economy. I paid $1.56 / gal for gas today. Based on my calculation, this product would need to save me 265.625 gallons of gas over the next 5,000 miles to make the investment break even.

Seeing as I currently average between 48 - 52 Mpg, that same 265.625 gallons of gasoline would power my Prius for 13,281.25 miles. That said, there is no way at all that I would ever be able to justify the investment.

I understand that I would only need one of these as the Prius exhaust does not require the Y but I still see no benefit. Even with only one blade, it would have to save me 132.625 gallons of gas which could currently propel my car 6,631.25 miles.

Are my thoughts incorrect somewhere?

 

You definitely need to do the control runs (i.e. the runs without the device) both before and after the attached test. If attaching the device causes the fuel injection system to adjust, it would affect the control run if executed after the test run.

 

I am not sure if they will be sending me a Y adapter. The way my car is built, i doubt that will occur. It may not even work on my car. I will find out soon enough. You guys have to remember this device is primarily a particulate filter. Granted, driving a prius, your exhaust particulate count is much lower then mine. But, there is still unburned gas that passes through your exhaust system.

If you were to install a blade on your vehicle, drive it for 8-10,000 miles. You would find nearly half a pound of particulate (thats a guess from the images ive seen) in the filter. I realize that is a small amount and its not meant to be world changing. But, if 10,000 people do it with larger SUV's and non hybrids, you are looking at significant particulate emissions not being let into the environment.

The filter for the blade has been used in brazil for about 10 years on their diesels. They are able to clean the filter on those vehicles and actually recycle the carbon that is found in the filter. What all this means is that if you buy the blade as only a fuel saving device, you will still eventually get paid off depending on your mileage driven. Also notice that gas prices have dropped substantially and will eventually rise again. But lets do some math.

The blade has been shown to increase a minimum amount of 3% gas mileage on some cars. Others have had up to 34% increases. Lets just go with 5% on the low end. So thats 2.5 mpg on your car based on 50 mpg average. If you drive 12,000 miles a year. You would only save 12 gallons of fuel which equates out to 18 dollars. Definitely no gas benefit for you at those stages. But lets say it saved you 20% just for the heck of it. That is still only a 60 dollar savings.

But if we were to move gas back to 4 dollars a gallon and move back the increase to 10% (a very likely number) and you were to drive 12,000 miles a year. You are looking at an 88 dollar savings. You double the gas mileage increase to 20% and your at 176. So obviously for you, there is no way you can recoup the costs of the product in gas mileage alone in under a year based on a 12,000 mile driving. Now lets look at my car.

I drove 44,000 miles last year. I would say I averaged 26 mpg. Im expecting an increase of at least 15% according to what the blade people have told me. They suspect it might be as high as 25%. So, I'm expecting to average 29.9 over the next year with the blade attached. I would use 1692 gallons baseline; 1472 gallons after blade installment. So, at 1.50 a gallon, I'm saving 330 dollars in my first year.

At 4.00 a gallon, I would save 880 dollars in the first year. Expecting to change my filter every 10,000 miles or so, i would need to add another 100 dollars to the cost of the blade. 20 bucks per change, 5 changes in a year. So for me, the gas mileage savings make up for it even at this price as long as they turn out to be at least 15%. I come out 30 dollars ahead at 1.50 a gallon and 780 dollars ahead at 4.00 a gallon.

So is the prius the absolute best candidate for this product? It depends on how much you drive really.

On another note, i saw you were taking calculations at 5,000 mile filter changes. For 4 cylinders, you really should be getting 10,000 miles per change.

 

Any news Carguy? I am curious about your test. When can we expect the adapter to arrive?

 

So what's the story? Did you get it installed? Did it blow up? (Explosions make everything more exciting)