Religion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

Schmika, I don't know whether to laugh or gnash my teeth, commend you or chastise you. You are exceptionally diligent responding to every single one of my posts and to the posts of others - your thoroughness is remarkable and commendable.

But you ain't even TRYING to address the issue. For the THIRD time you've thrown a banana peel on the ground hoping I'd slide on it and get distracted or hurt or something.

Now this most recent statement of yours, besides FAILING to even consider my question, makes a declaration that should deeply disturb every religious person, for what your saying is, not only is the bible incomprehensible to some, but there's no reason to even bother trying to make it comprehensible! Are you sure that's what your pastor wants to hear from you?

I had believed, evidently naively, that one of the PRIME things expected of "god's" followers was to "spread the word." Telling someone they'll never understand it sounds suspiciously like a lazy cop out. It's EASY spreading the word to those eager to hear it; but the REAL accomplishment is succeeding in spreading the word to those who DON'T want to hear it.

So, ONCE AGAIN, answer the question. Two others have already answered it - unfortunately, the answers they gave were irreligious; they explained that the guide used to "divide" the bible came from outside the bible. Unless you concur, which I doubt, since concurring would mean defying the principal tenet of fundamentalist belief, I'd be interested to hear YOUR answer.

You've already made it clear that some of the bible "doesn't apply" to some people. OK, HOW do you know this? And how do you find out what kind of person YOU are? If mom is a fundamentalist and dad is a Jew, what does that make you? And what if grandma is a Catholic? Where in the BIBLE can one find out what applies and what doesn't? (And I find it WEIRD that anyone can seriously claim that the bible is sectioned out ethnically).

Now, on another front, you responded a little TOO quickly:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

You thought it didn't. It does. Deuteronomy 18:18 thru 18:21. Probably elsewhere too.
So you conceded the point and then try to "mollify it."
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

Again, knock it off! Stoning a child to death for ANY reason is barbaric, and you DO say so:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

Boy, I'LL say! I've got a question: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THIS BARBARISM APPLIES TO YOU OR NOT? It's IN the frigg'n bible, so it must APPLY to SOMEONE, else WHY is is it in there?

Now, you did mention somewhere that Jews have to abide by the Old Testament. Do you mean that Jews must follow this barbaric practice? I would be REALLY careful about telling that to a Jew to his face.

With respect to yourself, incidentally, THIS sentiment is weaseling of the worst sort:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

Buddy, next time you pull over a speedster and he tells you "I wasn't IGNORING the speed limit; it just doesn't apply to me" I'll watch how fast you pocket your citation book and walk away satisfied.

On the matter of decorum and respect, you said:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

Well, this is what you said at that time:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 24 2006,)</div>

If you meant book, you could only have meant its author, which is a person, so you made no error. It's an insult, however uttered.

But I forgive you. It's an emotional topic, and I truly appreciate your consistent responding, although I wish you ANSWER the issue.

Finally, you raise a new question:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

If that's true, what on earth do we need a thousand page bible for? Anything that requires a thousand pages of closely spaced manuscript to fully get its points across CANNOT be simple. Einstein set down the complete theory of relativity in, what was it, 5 pages? I don't rememebr, but it was succinct, a masterpiece of simplicity explaining a concept VERY difficult to grasp, it's so far outside the realm of common sensory experience. The bible, "god's" "inerrant" guide to something ALSO beyond the realm of common sensory experience that we're all supposed to follow (even those of us who find it incomprehensible and can't find anyone willing to explain it, as you have so far FAILED to even attempt to do), is a thousand pages or so.
So it's GOTTA be more complicated than your claim. After all, if your claim is ALL WE NEED TO KNOW, why not just ditch the complicated muddle of that thousand pages altogether and hoist your clean, simple sentence as the SINGLE banner of religious compliance?

Let me know whether you let that speeder get away with a warning!

 

These “children†were not as you suppose or wish to make your point but kids between the age of 1-14. I believe that to be subject to this law you had to be at least 14+ years of age. Today many US states have tried children for murder and so have some nations. Stoning barbaric? Well considering the time in history which way would you have put someone to death? Now before tou condemn the death pentalty remember the age we are talking of and the prison system they are likely to have had or not have.

With all due respect to Schmika the bible say that Satan believes in God and I suspect that won’t do him and his cohorts any good. Also why would God write the commandments into our hearts if they don’t apply to us anymore? I say that all laws apply to us these days but our works wil not save us only the Grace of God will do this.

That’s a good point just because Schmika forgives someone for speeding does not give that person a pass to go out and speed again.

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 27 2006, 11:43 AM) [snapback]246111[/snapback]</div>

Parenthetically, I will acknowledge that you have ONLY my limited writings to determine the kind of person I am. You have NO CLUE how I live my life....as I have no clue about you.

 

Airport kid, I can't answer your questions. I am an infant in my faith (I was saved in August of last year) Like an infant, I am learning from my parents and family (church and it's Pastor and teachers) and I believe entirely in my faith in God.

Because my eyes are open, I can CLEARLY see the scriptures for what they are. I do not evangelize because I am still incompetent to do so.

All of my posts were an effort to explain WHY I FEEL THE WAY I DO. I cannot "answer" to your satisfaction. #1, I believe the only reason you want me to is so you can refute it and #2, it would be the same as me trying to explain to you what a steak tastes like. It is a personal issue.

What you HAVE shown me is to "never bring a knife to a gunfight".

Though, some of your arguments are poor (the speeding thing...c'mon, the law DOES apply to you, I didn't say just because I thought certain parts of the Bible don't apply to me they don't...a study of the bible indicates God dealt with people in "divers ways in divers times")

So, what are you wanting from me...Oh, I know YOU WIN!!!!!! happy?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 27 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]246275[/snapback]</div>

Hey! My answer was religious! Honest!




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 27 2006, 08:49 PM) [snapback]246459[/snapback]</div>

Congratulations ... and welcome to the family.

Do you think that your conversion was the result of intellectual choices (i.e., you considered certain things, and then decided that Christianity was the way to go). Or was it a spiritual thing, a result of being drawn to God in a way that you can't really describe in so many words?

The reason I ask is that it is my experience that becoming a Christian was not the result of study and reason (although it is for some), but was more philosophical and spiritual in nature.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 27 2006, 09:40 PM) [snapback]246477[/snapback]</div>

Very good response..... Anyone who did choose Jesus based on an analytical standpoint has no better relationship than someone who chose his wife or husband because it was the "analytically correct" thing to do.

Sorry, but to all those who require a sign to believe... well signs are nice, but there are tons of things that power and motivate peoples lives without signs. Where is the proof you love your spouse?... How do we know you didn't read and learn how to act out all the moves as one who loves?

Jesus knew it would be difficult... works are lame without love and love is lame without works.
Another way to say it is Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead too.

So how can you judge someone's faith?..... you can't, but you can judge whats linked to it.... love.

How do you judge love?.... fruits..... fruits are the one thing you cannot mimic.

You can be happy when you win the lottery and sad that your life cannot be fixed with all the money you won all at the same time.

You cannot fake Joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, etc... they are quite obvious when they are genuine and quite obvious when they are not.

Even hard speech that can lay low, can be motivated by love.... and fair speech that gives the warm and fuzzies, and be motivated by hate.

If you judge things with your eyes only, you are blind before you start.

Eyes and brain analytical power is only to navigate through this physical plane... they are useless and even a hindrance in the spiritual plane.
Some individuals who seem like analytical idiots and even retarded, may be geniuses in the spirit realm as they can see into its realm, sense, love, and be sensitive to others and know their pain and thier hearts.

If you are an intellectual giant.. don't boast.. it may be your downfall...
In heaven, many that were giants here on earth will be small in heaven "if they even make it"... and those who were small on earth living in the streets may be giants in heaven.

God loves all the same, but not all will be rewarded the same. Not all will have the same authority, many different crowns will be awarded... of course they will all the thrown down at the feet of Jesus and He is the one that made it all possible and alone is worthy to recieve honor.

Even in trying to speak simple and plainly, I realize I am still talking Greek to many....
One reason is that the worldly "unregenerated mind" cannot understand the things of God.. they have nothing to relate to, nor do they have the equipment energized.
Second, earthly things about spiritual matters are immossible to grasp by many.. let alone heavenly issues.

(John 3:12 KJV) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


(Rom 8:7 KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 8:8 KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(1 Cor 3:1 KJV) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(1 Cor 3:2 KJV) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(1 Cor 3:3 KJV) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1 Cor 3:4 KJV) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Since stuff we are talking about will never make sense since its matters of the heart, soul, and spirit... The only hope is that the heart of someone who reaches out will believe without seeing.. then they will see.
If you demand to see before you believe, you missed it.

Did you marry your spouse under those terms?

If so, I doubt your marriage is doing too hot now?

There are many valuable things in this life that are worth fighting and dying for that you cannot see.

 

Schmika, Wildkow and Fshagan, pardon my not pulling up quotes - that is such hard tedious work I'd rather just type.

My object is not to "win," gentlemen, but to "win" you over in exactly the same way you hope to "win" converts to religion, except my "evangelism" if you will isn't toward faith but toward humanism.

I've been a churchgoer. I spent about a year in my late teens trying earnestly to be a faithful fundamentalist, and guys, I gave it my utmost. I gave the bible and the preacher every benefit of the doubt I could muster. I wanted desperately for it to make sense, because the church was the most loving and welcoming community I'd encountered and (as you know) THAT is a POWERFUL attraction.

The most painful thing I've done in my life was walk away from it, and I did not do it willingly. The preacher herself asked me to leave, and the love I thought genuine was revealed an ugly fraud. A tiny minority of the church members remained friendly to me, but showing me acceptance only put them at risk of being cast out themselves.

Some unconditonal love. What was my "crime?" Writing a letter to the preacher pouring out all the conflicts I had with the church doctrine. I'm afraid I used too powerful a "gun" against her "knife" - she had no answers other than this: "if that's the way you feel you should leave the church."

I was born with a mind, gentlemen, and the church was telling me to shut it down, don't use it. That I cannot do. You might as well ask me to stop breathing as to stop using my mind.

I'm 50. I've seen a lot of this world - been around it once. And what I see and experience consistently reinforces two notions:

1. Reason and science are the best keys to mastering life man has yet crafted.

2. Faith is useful as tits on a bull, and deadly as nitro in the hands of infants.

These are not prejudices calcified in my bones, they are the inescapable conclusions I've drawn from half a century of passionate curiosity about everything. I tried, guys, I tried really hard to give faith a go.

What failed was not me, but faith. That is my view.

My sister belongs to the Moonies. Over the last couple years I've given her 10 and 15 thousand dollars to help her keep her head above the water, keep her and her five sons afloat while her husband tries to find a job that can support them. Has her church given her a dime? No, but her church demands money. Explain to me how "god" is helping her if she has to come to me for help and can't go to her church for help.

When I see the moral obscenities committed by churches and religion, I get livid.

So my arguments, as Schmika noted, can roar like cannons.

My being combative and sarcastic probably isn't the best way to "win," however, because I doubt I've made the slightest dent in your faith. Might even have bolstered it.

But I'll keep blasting away regardless.

The World Trade towers were raised by science and reason to further science and reason. They were felled by faith. I consider that, too, a failure of faith.

Gentlemen, I hope we can keep talking.

Mark

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 26 2006, 08:52 PM) [snapback]245898[/snapback]</div>

Of course, that begs the question "why did they?" I don't understand why God would DEMAND such brutal treatment of the creatures that he supposedly loves so much. Did he finally realize what a mistake he had and send Jesus to deliver the new rules and then have him killed to somehow seal the deal? And then there's the concept of hell, which really shows how loving this god is. The whole things seems extremely odd to me.

You know, Jesus said a lot of great things ("love thy neighbor" etc) but I don't understand how this message of love fits into the overall context of violence, suffering, and hate (best embodied in the concept of hell and eternal damnation).

As for the fossil business...

And for the record, ALL lifeforms didn't suddenly show up. There were no vertabrates for sometime. Fish first, then amphibs and retiles. Mammals may have actually predated birds, but I'm not sure on that one. Anyways, there were mammals during the dino reign in the mesozoic. Mammal diversity EXPLODED in the first 10 million years after the dinos, filling in all kinds of niches.

Yes, the Cambrian explosion is an impressive expansion but there were organisms on the planet long before the Cambrian. Stromatolites lived in the shallow seas for billions of years. Most were extincted by the chemical changes to the atmosphere that they were making. They poisoned themselves by producing oxygen and polluting the atmosphere with it. And they say history never repeats...

airportkid, have you tried a UU church? You'll find lots of humanists there, if you're interested.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 27 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]246500[/snapback]</div>

People are cruel, don't let people ruin you against God... God always has a people that reflect him much better than others....
When you go to a church for the social aspects the church can offer, you make yourself vulnerable to such wounding.
Its hard not to get attached and care about people thus making yourself vulnerable.

But the bottom line is you need a relationship with God First, then his people.. not the other way around.
Second, when you go to a church... test the waters and go for the presence of God you feel there and how it and the word and ministry of music etc touches and strengthens you.. Is God confirming and teaching you through thier ministry?... True, you can feel God in most churches, but just like picking a good woman, you must know the difference when you are in the right place just for you.

Then realize if God brought you there, man cannot fire you until you feel his release to leave.
Churches are not clubs that can kick you out, they are public facilities and you have the right to go to any of them if you are not hurting anyone.

Don't let a man or a woman ruin it for you....

It sounds like you were in the wrong place to begin with..... any church with the love of God would never remove you unless you were rising up against it to condemn their ways and teachings... if you are merely trying to learn and questioning authorities and have a resemblance of humility there should be no problem.

And remember.. you are still dealing with people, they are very imperfect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 27 2006, 11:22 PM) [snapback]246514[/snapback]</div>

We are made in the image of God so we can to a degree understand Him, he was four faces....
He has almost eradicated his people many times, but repented of himself the damage he was about to do because his love arrested him.

It is hard to understand, how a loving father can spank his children with fierce anger and be crying at the same time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 28 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]246517[/snapback]</div>

Yes, but God instructs, actually COMMANDS/DEMANDS the cruelty. That's what I'm objecting to, not the acts of people.

That's fair but sending his child to an everlasting torture chamber for ANY REASON is pointless, cruel, and fueled by hate. I find that to be the greatest paradox of the literal interpretation of the Bible. How can the God, "who so loved the world that he gave his only son", create a system such as that?!?

I abandoned "church" a long time ago. I don't have a relationship with God because I can't force myself to have a relationship with someone I can't perceive in any form or fashion. I would be being dishonest to think that way. It's not the way I'm wired. My wife and I do attend a Church, precisely for the social/spiritual stimulation. I'm not religious, but I do consider myself to be increasingly spiritual. I've found that to some degree by attend a "Science and Spirituality" discussion group at the Church we attend (a UU church in case you were wondering). I rarely go to the "service". Sermons aren't my thing. Far too passive. I'm much more interested in discussion/debate/sharing so that I might take something useful away from it. I like to be a part of the process. It allows me to bounce ideas off of others and fine tune my "spiritual world view" if you will. At heart I'm a humanist. "God helps those who help themselves" after all.

Everyone must find his/her own path. I'm a lot less bigoted in my views than I used to be. I'm working on being accepting without being judgemental. I have a hard time understanding a lot of the view bandied about, they're so very often at odds with what seems logical/rational to me. It's hard work, but I keep at it. Whose car add states, "It's not the desitination but the journey" (or something like that)? I think that that sums it up nicely.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 28 2006, 03:12 AM) [snapback]246528[/snapback]</div>

Hey tripp- we'll have to start a "UUs who drive Prii" group
A number of people in our church, including the minister, have Prii (kind of fits in with "respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. ")

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 28 2006, 12:12 AM) [snapback]246528[/snapback]</div>

I like to do this also, would you mind taking the pro side in a debate/discussion of eternal torment in hell topic please? see this . . . http://priuschat.com/Is-Hell-Forever-t18843.html

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 28 2006, 12:40 AM) [snapback]246477[/snapback]</div>

Since you asked...and some here seem genuinely interested...and the thread title is religion...

It was VERY spiritual. I had been becoming less and less happy. There had to be more to life than what I was "doing". There was an emptiness within. Then my step father, who was VERY involved in an independent Baptist church became ill and disabled. He wanted so badly to go to church with my mother so I offerred to take him every Sunday.

The congregation was so friendly and accepting. The Preacher so touched me with his messages. It is a very small church..easy to learn everyones name. They all seemed genuinely glad that I was there (and still do). It all made so much sense to me. It basically "filled" the emptiness. My step-father died in July and I continued to go with my mother and accepted Jesus in July. My last stumbling block...you guesed it...Pride. I was "embarassed". Once I got past that I found out my wife was worried about me (we never discussed religion) and she was so happy I was saved (she had been saved for years), my brother said he had been praying for me for years as did a very close friend at work.

It all seems so "right" and "simple" now. I am at peace in my faith. I agree heartily about being "put off" by the wrong church. A "church" is a body of like minded believers. So long as the basic precept is acceptance of Jesus, it does not matter you denomination. So, if you believe in God, Jesus, and the holy spirit and the fact that you must ask for salvation...then find a church that does that in a manner you can live with.

(personally, I like the fire-breathing damnation and hellfire type preaching....the "be not lukewarm but rather hot or cold type thing)

My preacher explains why Christians should behave in a way that edifies God....but no one is kicked out for dressing wrong. Yes, it is quite a fundemental church (women cannot be a preacher or a deacon or teach sunday school to the men) but, on the other hand, men are exhorted to treat their women like they would treat themselves and to love/honor/cherish. Women are put on a pedestal (figuratively) They are to be protected and supported. Women who work are not put down.

Sorry for rambling. Truly sorry for those who "lost" the faith (even more than those who never had it)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 28 2006, 06:17 AM) [snapback]246563[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, there are about 7 prii at our church. Mostly gen II but a few classics. I've also seen a HCH too. It's nice to see people putting their money where their mouths are.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 28 2006, 07:53 AM) [snapback]246603[/snapback]</div>

So what do you take this to mean. It's unclear what this means. Does it mean that the occupants of hell are simply obliterated after being tortured for some unspecified period of time? Or, are they then redeemed and "called home"? It's unclear from that passage what happens.

Or is all of this a metaphore for a hell on earth of our making if we don't follow the priciples laid in the Bible (and for that matter a host of other religions)?

Oh, and Begreen was wrong. John Wayne has been to hell in back, at least in a movie.

 

Couldn't disagree more. But that's probably why I'm wouldn't set foot in church as you conceive it. Well, occationally I've had to, and I'm civil. Just try to get through it all without getting too low and ornery. The only way that members of a UU church are like minded is that they can respect and communicate, albeit passionately at times.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 27 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]246500[/snapback]</div>

I can certainly respect that.

We have a lot in common. I'm also 50, and have the scars to prove it. I also agree that reason and science are very, very important, and take comfort in the idea that there is no conflict between science and my faith that I haven't been able to resolve. That has meant changing my mind from time to time, but that is always within the framework of my core beliefs, which include the idea that if God is Truth, then God isn't afraid of the truth.

"Reason" sometimes can be a problem, because so many of the folks touting "reason" are strident in their anti-religious values. A wonderful exception was Steve Allen, who considered himself a Christian Humanist. Its challenging to consider other's views and how they integrate into your world view, a practice Allen obviously was no stranger to.

Faith didn't serve you well; it is good that we both live in a time and place where we can freely admit that and discuss things. I too had some very bad experiences with individual churches, and consider myself a "refugee" of sorts from them. But I value my faith as a very powerful force for good in my life, and believe, on balance, that religion serves a community more than it harms it.

But I suspect our differing views are colored by our experiences, and real movement away from those views probably isn't going to happen. Whatever we say about spiritual things and the afterlife, I think we both recognize this life is far too short to spend it in strife. You're welcome at my table any time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 28 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]246852[/snapback]</div>

I think your story is very common among Christians who were not raised in a church. Its interesting that the prayers of others ... which you discovered after your conversion ... seem to touch you now as expressions of concern by those who love you the most. Yet, prior to your conversion, would those same prayers have made you mad? This may not be your style at all, but I have heard many say things like "who are YOU to be praying for me!" only to have a different perspective once they are on the other side of the aisle, so to speak.

Thanks for sharing your story. It rings honest and true to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 28 2006, 12:12 AM) [snapback]246528[/snapback]</div>

Just because they are of the human race, does not make them His child... in fact he referred to some as having the Devil as thier Father, and children of perdition etc...

It has all to do with Who is your Father and what family you are of.... He says either you are against Him or you scatter.

YOu say its hard to relate..... thats the very reason the Devil is trying to pervert the family unit and the marriage unit... when children grow up without a loving Father and learning to understand the discipline powered by love, they cannot understand their heavenly Father either.

I know you may say.. how can discipline be powered by love?........ thats what I mean.. without discipline, the child get ruin't by letting his sin nature rein without restraints.

A few notes about discipline and taming the reckless human nature:

(Prov 23:13 KJV) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(Prov 23:14 KJV) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

(2 Sam 7:14 KJV) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
(2 Sam 7:15 KJV) But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.


(Psa 6:1 KJV) To the chief Musician on Neginoth upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David. O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.
(Psa 6:2 KJV) Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.
(Psa 6:3 KJV) My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?
(Psa 6:4 KJV) Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

(Prov 19:18 KJV) Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

(Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Those who have not been able to see this demonstrated during thier childhood... where the pain of present discipline in its bitterness turns into sweetness later as the soul is strengthed and the rebellious nature is killed. Sometimes its not till years later that the discipline of the years prior are appreciated when more wisdom has entered.

But to those who have been abused..... discipline seems like abuse, being not mixed with the proper balance of love, and trust seems foolishness, authority seems as the stronger taking advantage of the weak.... the world becomes colored with glasses of untrust and unbelief, not to be trusted ........

If those people feel they cannot trust a Father figure they can see... they certainly won't believe and trust in one they cannot see. That goes for the president, pastors, teachers, ...... any entity that represents authourity and a Father figure.

Thus the beauty of the master plan of the Devil to ruin faith in a Father, the family unit and even love itself.

This is why God hates sin, because of the damage it does.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 27 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]246275[/snapback]</div>

Ha ha ha ha ha.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Apr 26 2006, 11:20 AM) [snapback]245625[/snapback]</div>

This is nonsense. While the fossil record is necessarily incomplete, there are numerous examples where we have clear fossil evidence of step by step evolution from one species to another, by way of very small changes.

Creationists will always find examples of where there are holes in the fossil record, because we have not yet found the relevant fossils. Remember that fossils are formed only under very special conditions and there will always be populations that were never fossilized because conditions were not right.

However, any one example of clearly documented change from species to species disproves the creationist hypothesis of unchanging species. And there are many such examples. Ergo, creationism is disproved by numerous contrary examples. And year by year more fossils are found, filling more holes. The record will never be complete, but it is already conclusive: change happens. And evolution simply means change.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 27 2006, 08:39 PM) [snapback]246457[/snapback]</div>

And yet you were very quick to accuse me of having been in prison for drugs, and then asserting that you'd have no qualms about lying to put a drug-user in jail. (Leaving me to wonder whether you'd lie in court about how fast a smoker was driving, since niccotine is a drug.)