Religion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2Hybrids @ May 11 2006, 05:20 AM) [snapback]253362[/snapback]</div>

Well Richard, if you had read ANY of what I wrote above, you would understand that, thanks to archeaology, the accuracy of the Bible we have today has been confirmed. Thousands of handwritten copies of Bible manuscripts—an estimated 6,000 of all or portions of the Hebrew Scriptures and some 5,000 of the Christian Scriptures in Greek have survived to our day. More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. Ancient scrolls that date from the time of Christ, or even hundreds of years earlier in some cases, have been cross-compared to newer scrolls, or book fragments that have been found. These comparisons have confirmed that, according to scholar William H. Green: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.â€
The reason for this accuracy, even if you remove God's direction and protection: "The copyists were extremely meticulous in their work. For example, early Hebrew copyists even counted every letter in the Torah to prevent mistakes from creeping in when manuscripts were being copied. Each time they copied one, they would count the letters in their copy and compare it with that of the original to make sure that both were identical. It is reported that they counted 815,140 individual letters in the Hebrew Scriptures."
"For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. "
So, thanks to the SCIENCE of archeology, the accuracy of today's translations is no longer open for debate. Other than a few grammatical errors which crept in, or a few spurious texts that were easily picked up on and eliminated, what we have today is essentially the original, written Word of God.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ May 11 2006, 11:23 AM) [snapback]253475[/snapback]</div>

If, what you say here is true- and since I am not a biblical scholar, I will assume that it is- it proves nothing other than what it says, namely, that scribes were very meticulous in ensuring that they made an accurate copy each time. That is certainly true of other ancient texts as well, if perhaps not to the degree of diligence in the versions of the Bible. It doesn't prove anything about the original authorship.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 10 2006, 08:14 PM) [snapback]253299[/snapback]</div>

I was fortunate. My parents didn't lie to me. They didn't pretend there was a tooth fairy, or a santa claus, or a god. My mom did give me a quarter when a tooth came out, and we got presents at christmas, because she didn't want to use atheism as an excuse for not giving us stuff. But she never told us any of it came from magical spirits.

Here's the difference between believers and atheists:

We both look at the incomprehensible beauty and complexity of nature and of life, and especially of ourselves. Some people say: "Something this wonderful could not possibly have happened by itself. It must have been made by somebody. This "somebody" must be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, he must love humans above everything else, he must have dictated this one particular collection of ancient writings, he cannot possibly have spoken in allegories when he wrote it, he is incapable of having used humor or exaggeration when he wrote it, and he must have prepared a hell for everyone who does not believe exactly as i believe about him... etc. [with slight changes in details for different sects]."

But other people look at the same incomprehensible beauty and complexity of nature and life and ourselves, and say, "I don't know where it all came from, but fairy tales and make-believe are no answer. Let's study it instead and learn what we can."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 10 2006, 08:11 PM) [snapback]253249[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 10 2006, 08:31 PM) [snapback]253266[/snapback]</div>

I figured the one out when I was six, and the other when I was thirty-six. Not sure why it took me so long.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 11 2006, 12:46 PM) [snapback]253671[/snapback]</div>

I think that saying there is no God is a fairy tale.

thats the farthest thing from reality I"ve ever heard.

Even the top scientist of the world are adopting an omnipotent theory into their beliefs.... they say, even the big bang could not have happened without a divine intervention.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Jun 28 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]278281[/snapback]</div>

Even better! Now they are saying that the Big Bang did not or could not have happened.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 19 2006, 03:42 PM) [snapback]242232[/snapback]</div>

Replace your "Former Catholic" with my "Former Methodist", and add "still curious about many religions" to your quote, and you've described me, too.

To answer the original question, though, I definitely think there is a middle ground. In fact, seriously, how fundamental are the "fundamentalists?"

 

I find it interesting that anyone would argue that two stories of creation do not exist in Genesis. Of course the Bible is full of contradictions as the overall theme of the combined books is the journey and not the end.

Atheists, just as Christian sects, muslims, hindu's and other religions have beliefs and faith that their beliefs are correct. What is different is how those beliefs are supported and the spirituality (separate from religion), is generally not debated as all people have it.

None of this points to a God, or gods, or lack thereof.

The initial growth of religion was to answer things which did not have the knowledge to understand and the religious infrastructure needs to be self supporting and self perpetuating hence the focus on conversion, donation, sacrifice, guilt, and reprodution. This is all quite normal as far as I can tell.

I find relgion in and of itself quite beneficial to our world. If we did not have religion we would find another reason to go to war, control our social structures, and rationalize the fear of death and the miracle of life.

I don't intend to be so bland, but it is a fact that most people have some sort of faith, and I include Atheists as equal citizens in the school of religion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 28 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]278296[/snapback]</div>

thats what I mean... those are the ones who won't believe in a supernatural God.....

they also don't believe we are here either I'm sure.... how could we have gotten here without a supernatureal God?.. we must not exist either?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marjflowers @ Apr 18 2006, 12:45 PM) [snapback]241641[/snapback]</div>

There are also those of us who are neither fundamentalists (Christian or otherwise) nor atheists, but don't believe that our own personal religious beliefs are just that, our own personal beliefs, and do not believe we have the right to push our beliefs down other's throats. How about "live and let live?" You don't tell me what to believe, and I will grant you the same courtesy. And I will grant you the further courtesy of not telling you how wrong you are because your beliefs are not mine.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tnthub @ Jun 28 2006, 05:21 PM) [snapback]278320[/snapback]</div>

I can appreciate your stance of feeling like God or the Devil basically fills in any hole we do not understand.. and to some degree that does still happen today.

But by the same token, its not fair to say that just because you understand it, that it cannot be God?

God is by no means limited to the supernatural and he operates in and throgh the natural also all the time.

If you haven't noticed, man was made with a "need" to worship God. If he doesn't find the real God, he makes one up. Its just the way we are built.

God purposely gave us limitations to our understanding, and put limits and barriers to our ability to see into the spirit world. Some say.. thats cruel to play such games right?

God does not want us serving him through our eyes of understanding and 5 senses... that is shallow and weak and subject to deception as our understanding and senses are only made to navigate through this physical plane. And the enemy "the devil" has the ability to manipulate and reach into that realm as it is not true reality so he can bend the perception of reality.
But in the realm God operates in, the devil has no place nor power. When you attempt ot operate in the natural, you are vulnerable to deception. As I said earlier, God operates in the natural, but so does Satan, the only safe haven to know you are hearing, feeling, and seeing correctly into the spirit realm is when you are no longer in the natural and in the spirit.

What is "in the spirit?".. Its anytime you are operating with Senses given you at your "second birth" rather than your first!

The part of us that was made to navigate in the spirit realm is dead "unless your born again".

When I say "born again", I don't mean you did a little confession.. I mean you were baptised with the Holy Spirit and given a new heart, eyes, and renewed mind to see into the spirit realm and understand spirit matters.
Without this, it is very confusing and does not make sense.
How would you understand concepts of this physical world if you could not see, smell, feel, taste, or hear?

The same is true of the spirit realm.. until you are given the ability to have power to see, feel, taste, discern, and hear in the spirit, none of it makes sense.

The bible explains that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the spirit.
YOu can argue all you want, and get frustrated that it doesn't click, but until you surrender with a "state of the heart", you will never understand with a "state of the mind".

You will never see the parallels of both worlds, because one world is invisible to you, .... this is why the pharasee's never got or understood Jesus's teachings done with parables though they were wise learned men.

God is not limited by our understanding and just because someone does not acknowledge him or believe he is real does not make him "not real". ....No more than if you didn't see a tree fall means that it didnt' fall.

 

I did not rule out that we may have been created or put here by something beyond our control. I did not rule out the supernatural, spiritual, or the concept of a life force that transcends the physical.

The human concept of God or gods is evident in many cultures through many centuries. Religions come and go in terms of acceptance, popularity, longevity, ritual, and focus. To think that our current world religions are the only correct answer is to me as close minded as the Atheist who chooses to believe beyond any reasonable doubt that some sort of creation did not occur.

My only real argument to either claim is as follows:

Scientists, no matter how brilliant, intelligent, por positive, are inevitable drawn to question and revise as we learn more and as such are constantly subject to re-examination of "facts" which can be chenged based upon new evidence.

Religions, no matter how entrenched or how much we may believe them to provide the way, the truth, and the light, are essentialy based on scripts written by people, no matter how inspired, and often recount events well after the fact as told by others. No matter how much we may want the word of God to be translated exactly as intended, the human must be a filter of information and as such it is imperfect.

While I accept that creation may have occurred, I do not accept that we know how, when, or why. If creation occurred, I do not accept that is must have been God, a god, or multiple gods that caused it. Because we do not understand does not mean that the term "god" should be used as any part of an explanation.

It seems to me that if a person of today were placed on our planet 2000 years ago, it would take very little effort to be proclaimed a god and construct a system of worship in perpetuity that would provide a long term basis for societal development.

I very notion that something we do not understand, no matter how good or how bad should be elevated to the status of God, any god, should be accepted as a way of explaining our being is to me illogical and somewhat frightening.

I find acceptance a very powerful and calming perspective. I find learning about faith and belief integral to the formation of society. I also find we all draw inner strength from out beliefs. I am amazed every day with our world and the creatures that share it. I find no reason to think that our creation is found in a book written by man regardless if it was written 2000 years ago or last week.

I believe that each day I am alive is a day that I have an opportunity to make this world a little bit better for all of us. I also believe that when I die those days are gone as am I.

Sorry to be so long winded, but religion is much broader than Christian beliefs, in my opinion, and you are correct, we all have some sort of faith and belief system although not necessarily a belief in God.

 

You all have some serious writings here and I don't have time to read all of it. However, I'd like to throw in here that I'm Wiccan. I don't practice, however, since I have no time to do other things as it is. I swear that if everyone would read a book such as Wicca For Men that everyone's minds would change in one way or another. Wicca is no joke and has been around (in one form or another) for longer than anyone can imagine.

Any thoughts or comments?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Jun 28 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]278281[/snapback]</div>

Poppycock. Scientists are not saying that the big bang required divine intervention. Unless you refer to those few fringe people on the payroll of the creationist organizations, paid to put out misinformation about what "science" says. In fact, quantum theory offers some very plausible and internally-consistent explanations for how the big bang could have occured, entirely within the laws of nature. No god required.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jun 28 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]278296[/snapback]</div>

More poppycock. See above.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tigerops @ Jun 29 2006, 09:58 AM) [snapback]278641[/snapback]</div>

While I don't believe in anything supernatural, Wicca is at least an Earth-friendly religion that leads its followers to respect the ecosystem we all depend on, and to respect the beliefs and dignity of other people. (Unlike Christianity!!!) In this respect it is very compatible with Unitarian Universalism, and indeed, there are many Wiccans in the UU. Further, Wicca does not rely on the convoluted and self-contradictory logic, or the inconsistent claims of a supposedly "infallible" book. Wiccans do not try to force others to believe as they do, nor do they try to pass bigoted laws based on their beliefs. I like all the Wiccans I've ever met. If I were to be convinced that the world required a supernaturan explanation (very unlikely) I'd probably become a Wiccan. Either that, or a Quaker.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 29 2006, 12:42 PM) [snapback]278737[/snapback]</div>

Exactly, except for the supernatural part. There are different levels of belief, like any religion, in Wicca. I don't believe in the normal sense of the word "magic" when you think about things disappearing and junk like that. But I do believe that everything comes from something else. IE I come from the atoms and particles that made up the dinosaurs of the past.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tigerops @ Jun 29 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]278751[/snapback]</div>

If I am not mistaken, Wicca believes that both living creatures and inanimate objects have a spirit or life force. Trees, rivers, mountains, all have spirits in Wicca. Isn't this so? To me, that is a supernatural belief, and one that I do not subscribe to. On the other hand, I am slightly offended when people refer to climbing a mountain as "conquering" it. I thank the mountain instead for allowing me to walk on it and enjoy its beauty, though I do not believe it can hear me.

There is much that I find offensive in Christianity and the other monotheistic religions, especially their insistence that they possess the only truth and that everyone else will go to hell for believing in different myths than their own. And the venom that so many of their priests and mullahs and rabbis spew out. There is nothing I find offensive in Wicca. I can go to a Wicca celebration and feel quite comfortable.

 

:lol:

ha!

"scientists say..."

it's real easy to make that kind of claim up... but it's another thing entirely to provide evidence of someone making such statement...

remember that, wildkow? *evidence!* you had a small thing for it a while back

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tnthub @ Jun 29 2006, 07:04 AM) [snapback]278550[/snapback]</div>

I find very few scholars and Religious folks who think we are only 2000 years old.
The only ones I see with that attitude are those who are not students of the bible, or are goind on here-say.

First of all the creative days were up to the 4th creative day before the sun was even mentioned which is the basis for our 24hour day.

Each creative day could have been 2.5 billion years and that would coincide nicely with the big bang where When God said "let there be light".. the explosion started.

There is far too much we don't know and is too vague to get tripped up on some facts we don't understand to substanitate rational to say God must not exist.

Unless your blind, you will see that there is a wonderful order of intricacy and beauty that surrounds creation to the atomic level.

It fair to say you don't know God, or you can't see him, but to say he doesn't exist means you are so blind you also can't see his creation either. "look in the mirror"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tigerops @ Jun 29 2006, 09:58 AM) [snapback]278641[/snapback]</div>

I'm a Christian, so I can't endorse Wiccan beliefs, but from a sociological standpoint, I think Wicca is certainly a beneficial religion. The Law of Return, for instance, provides the same kind of self-examination that concepts like the Golden Rule do in my own faith.

The mistake many make is to take some of the attributes of various ancient pagan religions and ascribe them to Wicca, and I think you are smart to introduce yourself as Wiccan instead of just "pagan" for that reason.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jun 29 2006, 04:44 PM) [snapback]278868[/snapback]</div>

Yes and I believe that I produced facts and evidence for most if not all my claims. I'm not sure what I have to do with this post and/or what you are refering to here.



Wildkow