red bullet for the 5th gen prius

If I go to buy a light switch, all I need to know is does it conduct electricity when 'on' and not conduct when 'off'. That's all it does. And a person selling me one will be able to tell me that.

The only thing that matters about a replacement OCV solenoid is, how much faster does it change the cam angle from X° to Y°? That's all it does. Can anybody promoting it answer that question?

 

I think what you're missing is something that could be called "Quantifiable Evidence". If you're a reseller then take a deep breath, you may be overlooking our intent.

Nobody here is up to debating a 'butt dyno'. What we are looking for is empirical data that shows real numbers before we put anything into our vehicles. Interesting enough, decided to have a conversation with two of our technicians in the shop this morning about VVT solenoids and I posed a question like this: (one has 40+ years of mechanical and engine manufacturing / machine shop operations, the other has 30+ years of mechanical and electronic diagnostic experience. Both worked on vehicles in the 80's that had nothing but problems with fuel injection systems and were successful with repairs. Ask any legit technician about 80's FI cars).

"Explain to me how an OEM VVT solenoid can be replaced with an aftermarket one will increase power and performance in a car.."

Neither gave me a favorable response that leans toward improvements.

This isn't bolt on parts from Japan that make a car look better, this involves the engineering of the engines systems. Both of these technicians called pure BS on a claim that it could do it. With evidence and actual real discussions about how timing management systems work, there was no way this could happen without causing a check engine light to come on and a car going into limp mode. PMW solenoids that do not communicate with an ECU/ECM cannot produce this desired effect.

I'm open for a producer to explain to me in actual technical geekery, how this works. Otherwise it's nothing but snake oil on a butt dyno.

You're more than welcome to send me one, I'll examine it, spec it out and compare it to an OE unit (though I won't install it), check throw and port sizes to compare the two items before sending it back to you.

 

I have no horse in the race. Just reporting to you what I have experienced with people that installed it.

Some mods may not be for all but just don’t go out there and tell people not to try it out without actual trying out the mod.

There are a lot of really cool stuff for the Prius in Japan and that’s why I love to share this to people in the States so they too can get a piece of that Sunshine.

 

You won't find any actual data given anywhere, just bold claims that don't really make much sense to anyone beyond your average bolt on consumer. Tbh I haven't seen anyone say anything good about them anywhere other than those with vested interests.. This isn't the first thread about these on Prius chat, and you can find countless others across many other forums.

My first experience with these was on another Toyota site. A well known and respected tuner dynoed the devices back to back with stock and it made no change. No it wasn't a Prius specifically but another Toyota VVTI engine. The VVTI system has the same intention across any engine. Yea the Prius is probably tuned for efficiency, but the computer still ultimately decides to do what and when. You cannot stray far from the stock parameters or you get codes as @Dyjital suspected. (Cam timing related P0011-14) Per the Japanese video posted, a 3% power difference could be made up with so many variables, I really doubt you'd be able to feel it though though the slushy CVT in the Prius anyway.

If Quantum wants to front the cash for the dyno session and the device I'd gladly do it but we all know that is never going to happen.

 

I thought ‘you were done here’

Just giving you a hard time. Offer still stands if you decide to change your mind.

 

I was but tbh not a lot else happening on this forum..

How bout we split the dyno and the loser pays the difference?

 

If we got Chapman to put in his 2 cents then we are riding on a wave from this discussion.

Always wondered how you dyno a Prius? The traction battery state of charge is a varying factor and may affect the numbers.

 

See this is where you're 100% wrong. The claim is made by you and the manufacturer without evidence to support it. Please see my original statement and the words "Empirical Data". I'll gladly say I'm wrong if data (not customer feels) supports it. Until then it's snake oil.

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I don't need to disprove, I just need to wait for evidence that shows my assumption incorrect which nobody has provided. My position is based on knowledge of how these systems operate, practical experience and hands on troubleshooting of related systems in the real world.

Does it? You sure? Amp hours may decrease but voltage remains relatively constant so while the reserve capacity is lowered, the output voltage remains stable until the battery reaches a point that it must be recharged and the BMS (battery management system) shuts it off. All of this of course relies on the theory that during your dyno pulls would deplete the battery and never allow it to be charged. Newer batteries with proper BMS (Battery Management Systems) will keep the output consistent while the capacity drops.

Maybe look at Tesla dyno pulls and you'll see that they can do MULTIPLE consistent dyno pulls and drag races with near equal results without needing to recharge the system. This alone could blow a hole in your theory of reduced dyno results based on battery state of charge.

Besides, doing dyno pulls with such a snake oil item, you'd do multiple pulls and in varying order such as:

1. OE
2. Snake Oil
3. Snake Oil
4. Snake Oil
5. OE
6. OE
7. Snake Oil
8. OE
9. Snake Oil

To perform these tests fairly back to back would provide good and consistent results.

Shall we continue this discussion or are you wanting to call it and tap out?

 

Dyno results on a Prius can be an interesting question. I thought there was something with the traction control system that causes a problem on a Gen 2, because it can't be disabled.

Is that accurate? Do other generations have the same issue?

 

One again I have no horse In the race. I have done many installs and received very good feedback. This is a real world comparison by my eyes and you need to realize that.

I do see your compassion in the subject but you got to step back and ask yourself? What if I am wrong by not actually testing out the solenoid and experiencing it myself?

My occupation is building these engines and it’s a passion for me which really does not feel like work to me but a fun hobby.

 

Sounds like a 2WD problem. Wheel speed sensor throwing a fault and cutting power. AWD would have to go on a 4 wheel dyno.

 

That could easily be confirmation bias friend, and I'm sure you're aware that a Butt dyno isn't that scientific..

 

A: I won't install anything into my car without complete understanding of its benefits.
B: Empirical Data required to prove
C: Subjective information is irrelevant, placebo effect is real. Real world info relies on data.
D: You do have a horse in the race, you have financial interest and benefit from them and their install

Building these engines? Expand?


Here are three engines in the shop in various states of rebuilding.


You and I are on different levels, I wish you well.

 

And not a single Toyota Prius engine in sight…

Welcome to my World on the daily:




It takes literally 3 minutes to install a solenoid on this engine so once again I have no horse in the race.

Let’s see a photo of a Toyota Prius engine at your shop? I will wait…….


iPhone ?

 

Sorry but what does building long blocks have to with anything were discussing here?

 

But this is the gen5 subforum, not the gen1, 2, 3 or 4. How is a replacement oil control solenoid supposed to help a gen5?

The 1NZ-FXE(gen1/2) and the 2ZR-FXE(gen3/4) both had the old-style oil control valves. And those were only on the intake cam; the exhaust cam had fixed timing. The M20A-FXS in the gen5 is a totally different animal. First, it uses the new-style oil control solenoid. But it only uses that on the exhaust cam. The intake cam is controlled by an electric motor. So where do these special aftermarket solenoids go on the gen5? Do they replace the exhaust cam solenoid? Everyone agrees that any real benefit from these aftermarket solenoids would have to come from the intake side. But how can a solenoid built on oil pressure replace one that uses an electric motor?

How about a picture of one of these new Red Bullet/Quantum Solenoid/whatever? And instructions as to which cam it goes on?




Thoughts from my gut: I believe some that gen3/4(and maybe gen1/2) owners saw noticeable improvement after installing their "special" oil control solenoids. No gain in max horsepower/torque(I agree with the others here that there's no way a different solenoid can add total power to an engine), but a noticeable improvement in responsiveness and fuel efficiency. But I bet those gains came after replacing the original solenoid on a 5/7/10+ year old Prius with 80k/100k/150k miles and a history of 10k/11k/12k mile oil changes.

The whole VVTi system is extremely susceptible to fouling from oil sludge. I bet the biggest gains came from switching out a compromised solenoid with a brand new "special" one. But I would ask how much of that gain came from the specialness of the new solenoid versus the degradation of the old one? Would those owners have gotten 90%/95%/99% of the same gain just from replacing the old solenoid with a new stock OEM one?

I'd want to see a blind comparison between a new OEM solenoid and a Red Bullet/Quantum Solenoid on a closed course and with a trained(unbiased) driver before committing to alter my new engine from stock.

 

That discussion's all about possible complexities of a measurement well downstream of what the OCV even does.

Whatever a new OCV can do for you (if anything), it has no other way to do than by the rate it flows oil into the cam adjuster, possibly shaving some slight amount off the time it takes to change the advance from X° to Y°, if it flows oil faster than the OE one.

That's a difference a suitable setup could directly measure without any of those complexities that arise in measuring some downstream overall behavior and trying to attribute that to the OCV. Since the sole thing that matters about the valve is something that could be measured so much more directly, you'd almost expect it to have been measured already, and clearly stated for the product.

One of the most distinctive 'tells' you can spot in the selling of some kind of doodad is where it's a doodad with one, simple, directly measurable thing that it does, and the discussion gets stretched and steered in every direction other than whether it does that thing, and how much.

 

^^^^ This

I suspect any noticeable gains in older vehicles came from the original OCV operating more sluggishly than standard due to tiny amounts of sludging binding it up or restricting the oil flow going through it. The aftermarket OCV was clean and thus more responsive. But could any aftermarket OCV be responsive enough compared to a new stock OCV to make any empirical difference? Color me very suspicious. A hundredth of a second here, a tenth of a mile per gallon there?

 

Some CarCareNut videos on the different VVT systems that the Priuses have used over the years.

Here's a 20+ minute video on Toyota VVT-i systems. He mostly talks about the older style system found on engines like the 1NZ and the 2ZR. But near the end he talks about the newer style system found on engines like the 2GR-FKS and the exhaust side of the A25A and M20A.

new-style VVT-i - AMD is talking about a completely different engine(2GR-FKS), but I indexed the video to the point where he talks about the type of VVT-i the M20A-FXS uses for the exhaust cam.

VVT-iE - The system the gen5 uses. The engine in the video is the A25A, but the M20A-FXS uses the same system on the intake cam. (it's an early AMD video, so it's not his best, but he talks about the VVT-iE system in depth)

 

BTW, the MSRP for the OEM intake VVT-iE control unit is $1,010.00. I'm doubtful an aftermarket performance alternative is going to cost $400.

Intake VVT-iE Assy: 13090-25010 - MOTOR ASSY, CAM TIMING CONTROL W/EDU
Exhaust VVT-i Solenoid: 15370-25020 - SOLENOID ASSY, CAM TIMING OIL CONTROL
Exhaust VVT-i Valve: 135A0-25020 - VALVE ASSY, CAMSHAFT TIMING