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Reason-able Answer to Energy Woes

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Black2006, Feb 20, 2008.

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  1. Black2006

    Black2006 Member

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    This fails to grasp the very basic economic ideas of the free market:

    The essence of a "free" market is that we have more than one participant (as opposed to a single participant in the case of "command" economy.) Generally, those entities which are able to anticipate future market demands and adapt, will survive, and those who don't, will wither away.

    Thus, by definition, the market as a whole doesn't "wait" until it's too late, but some players do, while others are quick to adapt. As one energy source becomes scarce, it also becomes more expensive, providing great incentives and money for the development and marketing of alternative sources. The burgeoning whale-oil industry was replaced virtually overnight by kerosine, and it was not done by a government mandate, but by market forces.

    The one very important place where we have abandoned "market" forces is population, where we have had tremendous and very effective transfer of resources and knowhow from First World countries (with generally stable population growth,) to Third World countries, where such transfers have all but eliminated starvation and major epidemics, and have triggered an unprecedented in history population growth.

    It is this population growth, which is at the root of our exponentially increasing energy demands, and the corresponding environmental problems. When you come right down to it, logically, you have to blame the "do-gooders" and their successes during the last half a century.

    But instead of dealing with the pink elephant in the room, we keep talking about getting an extra mile out of our Priuses, and feel like heroes....
     
    #21 Black2006, Feb 25, 2008
  2. CalvinL

    CalvinL 2013 Prius Persona Black Cherry Pearl

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    Yeah - let's go back to candles and horse carraiges - especially in light of the fact that the USA is heavily dependant on oil in mostly our transportation sector. Just cut all our cars, suvs, trucks, diesel trains, et cetera.
    Well, actually, if we cut out suvs - that would probably be a huge cut in oil consumption right there - but that's my personal bias speaking. What's the point of a suv that sits 5 goons when a Mini-Van can sit 8-10 goons and still get slightly better gas mileage than an suv? You want cargo space? Then get a pickup truck - it'll still get you better gas mileage and more cargo room. but oh well - let's move back to the Flintstone days - that should be the new global move. yeah... right...
     
    #22 CalvinL, Feb 25, 2008
  3. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    You are placing the greatest factor on population yet not mentioning affluence? India has a much greater population that the United States yet the U.S. is worse in terms of environmental degradation. While the I=PAT formula is not perfect it does get us closer to what is really happening. :)

    Even if population growth dropped to 2.1 right now and we do not take youth buldges into account (IE zero growth), we would still have an environmental crisis because everyone is trying to climb that affluence tree.
     
    #23 F8L, Feb 25, 2008
  4. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    False argument and slightly ignorant unless you are just trying to be funny. :)

    There are MANY places we can cut energy use without requiring everyone to go live in caves and rub sticks together to make heat.

    If you were being serious then I highly suggest you do some reading up on the subject and maybe take a peek at what other countries are doing to cut consumption and then look at their national health ratings. :)
     
    #24 F8L, Feb 25, 2008
  5. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Please keep in mind that all of this economic growth and population explosions are temporary effects of digging into natural capital and that the effects of going bankrupt are going to be severe and upsetting for everyone. With ecosystems in decline (see the Millenium Ecosystem Assessment for more info) and no visible relaxation of consumption in sight, things are going to get worse much faster than technology is going fix. Someday we will realize that it isn;t technology that needs to evolve, it's our minds....
     
    #25 F8L, Feb 25, 2008
  6. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

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    "The essence of a "free" market is that we have more than one participant (as opposed to a single participant in the case of "command" economy.) Generally, those entities which are able to anticipate future market demands and adapt, will survive, and those who don't, will wither away."

    Notice my quotes on "free Market". There is no such thing as a free market in reality, esp. as pertains to energy. Our free market typically means: He who has the money and power is FREE to Market whatever they like. IE: What option do I have right now for getting my kids to school and me to work? A gas engine, and that's it! I can't afford a 100,000 electric car, there is no mass transportation, since the oil companies and car companies continue to thwart that. And renewable energy of all kinds get mere pennies compared to the subsidies of big oil (including military intervention to secure the crude). How is that a free market for energy? Yet, we're supposed to rely on the "free market" to find solutions to oil depletion?
     
    #26 Darwood, Feb 25, 2008
  7. Black2006

    Black2006 Member

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    Well, you are actually a prime example of the "free" market participant.

    You weigh costs and benefits, and you make choices: I know someone in Minneapolis who takes public transport, and they have to walk a little to get to it. I'd be really surprised, if you didn't have a similar option.

    And be honest now, if it was that important to YOU, you could afford an expensive electric. Compare the price of an electric relative to your yearly income, to the price of a cheap car in an any Third World country, relative to their average salary - you might be surprised how similar the circumstances can be. Yet people in Third World countries do buy cars. And so you can buy an electric, if you deemed it important enough.

    Would you really prefer that some overzealous bureaucrat mandated that YOU have to take public transportation, ride a bicycle, or have an expensive electric as your only alternative? Or, since you said "kids," which assumes more than one, if you were allowed only one, in the interest of the environment?

    The market works, most of the time. Case in point: Toyota makes money from the Prius, and the Prius just outsold the Ford Explorer in the US.
     
    #27 Black2006, Feb 26, 2008
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