Questions regarding the eco-friendliness of the Prius and the business ethics of Toyota

I wouldnt agree that no other car company is doing anything towards lowering fuel consumption etc.
However, funny you bring up HYDROGEN. Back when it was considered to be a valid research angle. But recent work is considering that it is pretty much vaporware. It might come about say in 2020?? A recent NOVA Science NOW went into some of the problems. But basically we lack infrastructure, a way to cheaply make it without using fossil fuels, a way to contain it effectively. Some car companies love it. The reason they love it is that basically they can say "we are years away but we are making progress". This keeps them from needing to do somehting today. Our current goverment likes it for the same reason. Mention hydrogen and they get all dewy eyed.


Romm, a Clinton administration point man on hydrogen, just wrote a book and is very skeptical now on hydrogen: http://www.energybulletin.net/2563.html
This link also describes the way hydrogen is being used politically to play at environmentalism and taking away R&D funds from other areas.

I think we may have hydrogen as a fuel source someday, seems inevitable?? But not until after 2020 or so...


---des

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 10:43 PM) [snapback]482614[/snapback]</div>

 

Well said, des, in last 2 posts. I was more bully on hydrogen after I saw a Scientific American episode--but they were showing the application of the technology in Iceland. Infrastructure and production is not nearly the issue there.

But the same NOVA show you mention really got me to questioning the merits of the application of the technology, rather than what everyone hopes it will be. By the time I saw "Who killed the electric car" I really liked the reasoning they explored, which is what you mention. Politically Hydrogen is used as something The Big 3 are "working toward" while ignoring many of the improvements that exist today that could be done, but they ignore. Granted, that documentary had its bias, but that political critique is spot on.

 

"There are several cars in Europe and Asia that get far better mileage with standard gasoline/diesel engines.

Even in the US there are cars with similar/better mileage than the Prius"


Why are you people wasting your time with this moron? Actually he is NOT a moron. He is a LIAR. All you need to do is read those two lines from him quoted above to realize it.

There are NO cars in Europe, Asia or the US which get "far better," "similar/better" mileage than the Prius. PERIOD.
It's all over Internet message boards and such that there are diesel cars in Europe which do 80 and 100 mpg - NONSENSE! It's a simple lie, perpetuated by people with an agenda. I immigrated from Europe to the US a few years ago, and I even currently own a couple of diesel vehicles. They do get better mileage than their Gasoline counterparts, but not that much. Just a few percent better, but then there are drawbacks, such as noise, etc.


A report just came out in England which shows the top 10 high MPG cars and the Prius was in the top 3. The ones that beat it, were tiny lil cars, which were a completely different class. They only beat it by a couple of miles and that's based on the EPA estimate, when in fact we all know that you could get higher MPG than the EPA, so Prius is still unbeatable.

There is no car of the Prius size, which has a better MPG than it on any continent. Wish there was, but there isn't.
A moped though will get you a lot better MPG than a Prius!!!!!..................

So I say next time someone like this individual starts talking nonsense like this, just ignore/ban him. It's one thing to ask a question and inquire, it's another thing to plain LIE.

 

My reasons are this: I don't think HE will change his mind, but there are readers out there who read and never post. So it is for their education. Also I don't believe that someone who posts politely-- even a liar or damn liar should be deleted. I would ignore but I think some of the issues raised are interested-- if wrong.
For instance, why not hydrogen? That's an interesting topic to me. Also I am responding as much/more to other posters. Believe me though, I have seen rude obnoxious nasty posts. I think they should be deleted. If it upsets you you shouldn't read but there are many potential lurkers. Also many times posts get on google.


As for the documentaries. I didn't see them as biased. I think you could argue that the use of hydrogen as a political tool to do nothing IS an opinion. But I think it was stated as opinion too. There is factual basis for the idea that while hydrogen started out being researched as honestly and fairly as possible that it changed at some point during the Clinton administration that poured a lot of funds into it. It seemed promising but changed. The same could be said for fusion. Who talks about that any more?? We might be 50-100 years from fusion (not in autos). Maybe hydrogen is the new fusion.


BTW, I do agree with the idea of multiple technologies. For instance, I think in Brazil (??) most cars run on sugar cane ethanol (lots cheaper than corn). I think these technologies should be explored. I just think that AT THIS POINT plug in hybrids are the most promising technology. Of course, something else could come along.


--des

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusTouring07 @ Jul 21 2007, 03:32 AM) [snapback]482699[/snapback]</div>

 

Be careful with UK ratings.

The Imperial gallon is larger than the US gallon. You CANNOT compare US MPG to UK MPG. UK MPG will be 1.2x higher.

Diesel has more than 30% more energy per gallon than gasoline. It also emits 14% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline (Source: http://epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm).

I'm going to repeat that: DIESEL CONTAINS MORE ENERGY AND EMITS MORE CO2 PER GALLON THAN GASOLINE. You CANNOT compare diesel MPG and gasoline MPG directly from an environmental standpoint.

The Prius, from a CO2 emissions perspective, is equal to a diesel vehicle getting 57 MPG (US gallons, Prius at 50MPG). To my knowledge there is no diesel-burning vehicle that gets 57MPG and is anwhere close to the Prius in size or performance.

From a smog-forming emissions perspective, it is the cleanest vehicle in mass-production today.

As for biodiesel, I'm not opposed to the idea, but let's not pretend that biodiesel is cheap - it's only cheap because no one wants it. Once demand increases, it's going to be every bit as expensive as petrodiesel - if not more expensive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusTouring07 @ Jul 21 2007, 12:32 AM) [snapback]482699[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for pointing this out.

The smart "fortwo" with a manual transmission and a horribly underpowered 800cc I3 40hp diesel engine (top speed: around 85mph on the flat) gets ~68MPG.

Where are these mythical cars that get 100MPG?

Motorcycles don't get 100MPG (the 243cc Honda Nighthawk only gets 70MPG, and it has trouble doing 75 on the highway).

Scooters don't get 100MPG.

 

I view the Prius as a transitional vehicle. Gas is going, going, gone. The only debatable point is when. The Prius is so very unique in taking this step in the right direction away from a Gas only car. Specifically:
1) The hard push Toyota forced in battery technology to 8 year lifetimes.
2) The hard push Toyota forced in Power Transistors (Inverters) to operate large, powerful Motor/Generators with Precision.
3) The major step of converting to a "Fly-By-Wire" Control system.
4) The creation of a VERY LARGE automotive manuacturing capability of motors and batteries.

Now CONNECT THE DOTS. Further development of electric cars (for Totyota) is a downhill effort because now it is REMOVING things (ICE, Gas Tank, Engine Cooling). Continued electric item development is now evolutionary, not revolutionary. The actual biggest hurdle is convincing Toyota that there is a very large market for this here and now. They have already been convinced that there is a very large hybrid market.

 

The OP also keeps ignoring replies that refute his "facts".

Like saying that 60 / 51 is an overestimate.

I've had my Prius for a WEEK and do almost 100% highway driving. I'm already able to beat the highway mileage at 65MPH and the car isn't even broken in yet. This is a full real world figure achieved by driving at or slightly above the speed limit. There is -NO- other commercially available NA car that can do this while fitting my 6'3 frame. I'm not sure there's one that could do it if I were 5'2.

One of the great things about the Prius is that people who normally would have bought another 25mpg midsized car are buying them, not just the super eco-conscious. This is a huge benefit to everyone.

It's great to babble about all the would-be, could-be, might-be-sometime stuff, or to talk about another vehicle that might come close to the Prius in one category while failing miserably in others, but for purchasing TODAY there's really no competition.

 

Also consider that diesel is not as good an alternative as hybrid. Consider this graph from fueleconomy.gov

First column is a regular gas Jetta, second is a diesel Jetta and finally a Prius. The results are even worse for SUVs. On the second image diesel Mercedes SUV on the left Vs gas Mercedes SUV on the right. BTW The last image includes the Aura hybrid. Just pathetic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 19 2007, 10:37 PM) [snapback]482033[/snapback]</div>

Really? Are you saying that when biodiesel fuel (which, like gasoline or ethanol or regular diesel contains hydrocarbons) is burned it doesn't produce carbon dioxide? Don't all carbon compounds when burned (oxidized) produce (among other compounds) carbon dioxide?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 01:11 AM) [snapback]482079[/snapback]</div>

Btw, biodesel doesn't work well at low temperatures. Because of the lacking of certain chemical structure in biodiesel comparing to regular diesel fuel, biodiesel becomes really viscous when the temperature drops below 0oC. Therefore most of the time biodiesel is used as a mix with diesel.

How do you get free biodiesel anyway ;D

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 19 2007, 11:37 PM) [snapback]482033[/snapback]</div>

And where do you think the fertilizer and fuel used to grow crops for biodiesel come from? That's right good ol' oil.

 

Yes, it's still just a car. It's a bandaid. Long-term partial solutions include restructuring our society to make better use of mass transit, and synthetic vehicle fuels made from atmospheric CO2.

BioDiesel is not free. It should be obvious that BioDiesel made from waste food oils is always going to be a tiny niche (potential production of millions of liters per year versus a potential demand of billions of liters). Growing bioDiesel on that scale would require millions of hectares of land under cultivation, which (equally obviously) has environtmental consequences of its own.

BioDiesel gets its carbon from the atmosphere, and so it is carbon-neutral in the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) sense *if the other materials and energy sources used in its production are also carbon neutral*. That is possible but is not guaranteed: commercial energy agriculture needs cultivation, irrigation, fertilization, harvesting, processing, and distribution.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 22 2007, 06:58 PM) [snapback]483364[/snapback]</div>

Another one of your ignorant fallacies. It is well documented on PriusChat that a broken in Prius gets better mileage than a brand new one.

 

"And thank you for pointing out that this isn't a troll thread"

Sorry, that might be one person's opinion, but it isn't shared by everyone here.

 

budding philanthropist-
You have been true to your word on being focused on the core of the discussion. Good dicipline when you are getting hit from all sides. Here is where you are strong:
1) The Prius is a car that burns gas and as such, is not worthy of being declared an environmentally "friendly" car. Correct on this point.
2) Gas and Biofuels do factor differently in their environmental impact and must be considered as having different impacts.
Here is where I consider your points weak.
1) Too much focus on the here and now. All the discussion of Biodiesel, Prius, Hydrogen, etc. is just a debate over the optimum transitional step to sustainable transportation. The Prius is one of the few real steps in this transition. The fact that so many are making PHEV versions clearly demonstrates this.
2) That the Prius and Diesel vehicles are competing against each other. They are not. There is a market for both and both will be part of the transition.

Obviously I like the Prius since it is a step in the right direction and it is just a really good car as well with some neat aspects (like a detailed MPG display) that encourages conservative driving.

 

Moron, The Capppuccino gets:

"Fuel Consumption
At a constant 56 mph 52.3 mpg (5.4 L/100km)
At a constant 75 mph 36.7 mpg (7.7 L/100km)"

The Prius gets:

Fuel Consumption
At a constant 56 mph 62 mpg (at least)
At a constant 75 mph 52 mpg (at least)

Big difference, isn't it?

Also the Cappuccino results are results put out by the makers of the car, the ones I list for the Prius are the ones which I got in real world driving with A/C at full blast, outside temp 114F with a passenger and luggage doing 1500 miles in two days.

Also, comparing the Prius to the Cappuccino is like comparing a car to a motorcycle; as well as comparing a Bentley to a Hyundai.


Same for the Daihatsu. Not only that, but the data you show is quoted in UK MPG - once again you are trying to mislead those who don't know the difference. The Daihatsu gets 59 UK MPG, which is 49 US MPG.

Even if the Daihatsu was getting 120 US MPG, it's still not a fair comparison, as the Daihatsu is even smaller than the Ford KA. I used to own a Ford KA and that car is just a little bigger than a Smart.

Where are all those cars which you state in your original post get FAR BETTER MPG THAN THE PRIUS????
The two cars you list are half the size of the Prius and still can't get as good mileage as the Prius. The Suzuki Cappuccino is more of a motorcycle than a car. Just a fancy four wheeled motorcycle with an enclosed cabin. It has a 3 cylinder 600 CC motorcycle engine (smaller than the average motorcycle on the road).

I've a scooter which gets 80 US mpg. Should I be complaining that the Prius is getting less MPG than the scooter? Get a life!

What entices people to call the Prius environmentally friendly? Any car which can do double, or almost triple the MPG of the average car on the road or as much as 10 times more than an SUV is an environmentally friendly car.




That's why I said he needs to be banned. He's not here to find answers or stir a healthy discussion. He's here spreading lies.

On this forum your bullsh*t tolerance seems to be too high, if you ask me.

What he does is called LIBEL and in the real world is punishable by astronomical fines and possible jail time in certain cases.

I'm out!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusTouring07 @ Jul 22 2007, 11:09 PM) [snapback]483401[/snapback]</div>

The OP at least is taking his meds, my friend. Sheez! Come on over and have a nice glass of vino, & we'll chill together! To the OP, you mentioned Hydrogen as clean burning? Better go read up on how much energy (electric or natural gas) gets wasted in it's creation. Or do a little homework on the "5 miricles" it takes to even think of hydrogen in the future (my personal favorite is making a production car for under a half million dollars) ... or google a great read on the "Hydrogen Hype". Come back when you're done & you'll realize what a scam it is. 10 years ago they said it'd be ready in 10 years. Now? It'll be ready in (you guessed it) 10 years.

My car pool buddy just got the TDI & it's noisy. BTW, Low Sulfer fuel oil (diesel) when not heavily subsidized by the Chey/Bush/Oilies ?? Forgetaboutid. Why do you think folks in the European Community pay so dearly? Tack that on to the cost? Go figure! It's a wash.

Don't even get me started on cane fuel from Brazil (while they burn down precious rain forest to keep growing more cane ... you see that's way cheeper than putting petro chemicle fertilizer into the soil. But rain forest soil is virtually steril within 2 or 3 growing seasons without it.) And grain / cane fuel gets way less energy than diesel or gas. And then there's the wasted electricity fermenting alcohol fuel. Do yourself a favor & use the search tool. It's been talked about ad nausium. Of course the GM gas guzzlin' fleet vehicles (impala suburban, silverado, tahoe) LOVE grain fuel because for EPA purposes, they only have to count the gas mixed in with it towards their mpg. Thus? If it drops from 18mpg to 16mpg burning flex fuel, and (for example) it's a 50/50 grain fuel / gas mix? Now they say the 16mpg is magicly 32mpg !! Oh yea, great stuff that flex fuel.

There you have it. Consumer reports lower quality ratings for the TDI over the Prius, higher priced de-sulphered diesel fuel with wasted tax payer's subsidies. Biodiesel unable to support more than 10% of the nation (plus the fossel fuel used in creating it) and way less of a percentage usable, for the whole world ...

Bottom line my buddy's TDI with mixed highway / city / short / long trips is averaging 40mpg. I'm sure with more careful driving he may do as well as 45mpg. My worst in the Prius, with brand new tires, in the middle of winter / city / highway / long & short trips? 50mpg. My best was over 71mpg this summer. Probably at least a dozen tanks that I've gone thru averaged in the 60's mpg, with not that much effort.

The only great thing I can say about the TDI was the handling. But you don't get high mpg by going balls out, with wide low profile tires, into the turns, do you. God forbid you should be enjoying that TDI feature on a mountin switchback when you hit oil or gravel ... I on the other hand will be anticipating the next turn and gliding into it accordingly, and thus won't be screeming to my death down the 100' cliff.

So all of your 'points' now have been put to bed, by all of the patient (& not so patient ... but heck! IT's because they love their rides, above all others!) P.C.'ers. Don't buy a TDI if you want the best car ... heck, when Toyota comes out with a diesel version (hopefully plug in too !! ) ... you'll just want to shoot yourself. That'll be the only time I trade in the white wonder.