QOTD: Why Hasn’t Anyone Out-Gas Mileaged The Prius?

So you're telling me that anyone can use HSD without penalty or do they have to deal with Ford?

 

Gen3 is much better managing cold then "C" (and guessing Gen2 it is based on).

You can still very much buy a similar car in US. 2014+ Mirage is 100lbs lighter, and has better MPG and more space then old Tercel.

 

...they say v is the best I think so Gen4 should get better

 

The European test cycle is pure fantasy.
It's easier to get 70 mpg with a Prius than with Polo, driving in european cities kills the mileage of any non-hybrid car ... real world all-around average mileage is almost the same for the two cars.
But the Polo is the same size as a Yaris and diesel has 10% more energy content per liter.

 

Not sure how it work in US of A.. Just b/c Toyota's patents expired in Japan it does not mean the situation in US is the same.

Honda tried to take on Prius head-on, but fell miserably with Insight-2. Going after hycam Camry was a sound business solution. They could bring hybrid Fit, but I am guessing they're waiting to see how Gen4 turns out. They made a mistake with Insight2 and don't wanna repeat it.

We may see hybrid Fit if competes favorably with Gen4. (cheaper, better MPG etc)

 

I think materials have changed. I think build procedures have improved.
Metals are light today. But even so? I don't feel metals on cars today that were as "flexible" as I remember that Tercel's body panels being.


I thought it was a great car for it's time, and it's price. It was Toyota's small car entry level offering. But I haven't felt or seen a car since that seemed to have such light and pliable body panels.

And that's a good thing.

 

I saw it on top gear, Mr Clarkson would never lie... NEVER!

 

That maybe true but we drove rental diesel Punto a couple years back in Italy, and managed 69MPG (if my math was correct). This is mostly on country roads from Rome trough Toscany to Venice and back. ~1500mi as I recall. I absolutely hated Fiat's stop&Go, kept clutch down on every light.

 

Ford was in a bad way financially, and would have been also filing bankruptcy if they hadn't secured several loans before the recession. This meant limited funds for hybrids, and they had to make do with making hybrid versions of ICE cars. The C-max was out for years as an ICE model in Europe, and the hybrid suffers from being saddled with that heavy body.

Nissan made the Altima hybrid duress. They needed a compliance hybrid for CARB, and only sold the car in those CARB states, and did the minimum to get Toyota's HSD to work with their Otto engine. The successful, as in not being canceled, hybrids they have now are power ones. Nissan is simply more focused on BEVs.

Mazda also did their hybrid for compliance purposes in Japan. They are a small company without the resources to R&D a hybrid along with the SkyActiv suite. It is the SkyActiv side that lets them best Toyota with the HSD. They are bringing out some type of plug in for compliance with CARB.

That is another reason why the others haven't bothered to make a real Prius competitor yet. The CARB ZEV program had them developing PHVs and BEVs. But Hyundai feels confident enough in their hybrid system now to make a Prius fighter, and everybody will be facing higher CAFE targets.

With the low gas prices in the US there simply wasn't much incentive for them to make efficient cars. Now it is an entirely different discussion on whether the people actually wanted it, or if they were swayed by marketing departments, the end result was that our auto market focused more of increasing performance.

A V6 Camry will accelerate as fast, and maybe faster, to 60mph than any 1970's muscle car off a dealer's lot, and is likely more maneuverable than them, while stopping quicker, and using half as much fuel.

The hybrid Fit is in the same class as the Prius c. When it first came out in Japan, it did beat the c on their test cycle. Then Toyota tweaked the c's programming to get back on top.
Supposedly, Honda will give us a sedan based on it, and maybe a small SUV.
A new hybrid Civic may appear for the segment between the Fit and Accord.

 

Fiat small engines indeed usually have good mileage (but break often...), but in summer on Italian country roads you can get the same mileage with a Prius without too much hassle.

 

Wasn't or Isn't much incentive?

What I remember about the mid 70's was gas scares, trouble in the middle east, and gas shortages and rationing. Plenty of incentive for automaker to start offering more efficient vehicles.

This did help Toyota and Honda and Datsun at the time. Suddenly their "small funny looking cars" made far better sense. LOL! My mothers beloved 67 Mustang was driven a whole lot less, and my families purchased Toyota Corolla station wagon got driven a whole lot more.

My point primarily wasn't to argue WHY efficiency hasn't improved. But simply to point out it's been nearly 40 years, and really the envelope OVERALL hasn't been pushed much on the efficiency front.

I suppose there has been some improvement. Today a retro-styled 2015 Ford Mustang will offer you 22 city, 31 Highway.
While I remember The 67 Mustang getting a "Gas is Like Water" 12 mpg or less.

 

And I was pointing out that the envelope has been pushed more in other areas while still getting a more or less steady improvement in fuel economy.

The gas shortages lead to CAFE with has helped improve car fuel economy. That and steady increase in gas prices. Without them, the base engine in a mid-size car today would still be a V6, and there would be a popular V8 options.

 

During the Clinton era automakers lobbied to avoid being forced to lower too much the average mpg of their cars.
Clinton-gore Team May Hit The Gas, Slowly, In Drive To Increase - tribunedigital-chicagotribune
``If we were told to reach 35 to 40 m.p.g. in fuel economy, we`d have to say there are no affordable breakthroughs in technology to reach that level and no demand for little Chevy Geo Metro or Ford Festiva cars",

Five years later Toyota launched the 45-mpg Prius. - and was bigger than a Geo Metro.
They didn't simply lost the train, they preferred not to leave home at all.

 

I agree with this.
I do think comparing the 67 incarnation of The Ford Mustang to the 2015 incarnation supports this argument.

While nobody is going to mistake the 2015 Mustang for a Prius or Economy Car, it is far more fuel efficient and probably just as fast and powerful as the V8 289 engine that I think existed in my mothers 67 mustang. While also being a much safer vehicle.

I never meant to suggest improvements haven't happened in 40 years of auto building.
But since we are in a thread asking why nobody in 10 years has out gas mileaged The Prius?

I think pointing out that the MPG's numbers overall really haven't been pushed that much in terms of overall efficiency in decades, fair enough.

 

Key word: Gas.

 

I don't think so. I drive "C" now and drove Prius for a couple years and don't think I can get the same MPG in those conditions. If it were in US Prius would have been cheaper as diesel more expensive here, but it was slightly cheaper in Italy.

When we got on autostrada with 130kmh and everyone driving 150-160 (top speed for Punto) I could literally see the fuel gauge go down.

 

Creating a car with the 50 mpg target of a Prius requires a near perfect alignment of powertrain, body shape, weight, and performance targets.

The Lexus CT200h has the exact same engine, hybrid transmission, and hybrid battery as the Prius liftback yet it gets a lower gas-only hybrid EPA estimate than the 2016 Volt which is heavier due to its 53-mile EV battery pack, and which is larger in interior and exterior measurements. The CT200h is also slower and more expensive, if you use the Volt tax credit, or only $2,000 cheaper without the credit when just comparing MSRPs. Other than that....

The 2016 CT200h gets 43/40/42 city/highway/combined and the 2016 Volt gets 43/42/42 mpg.

Both Honda and GM now have Camry hybrid competitors with 180+ HP of performance that get much better mpg estimates than the Camry with similar sized cars with only a bit less acceleration performance.

2015 Camry Hybrid
43/39/41 city/highway/combined

2015 Honda Accord Hybrid
50/45/47

2016 Chevrolet Malibu hybrid
48/45/47

Given that the CT200h managed to get 42 mpg with the same powertrain as a 50 mpg Prius, I'm guessing that Honda and GM could get 50+ mpg by putting their Accord or Malibu powertrains into a Prius clone of the same shape and weight.

 

And Paice LLC who sued Toyota . . . <gerrrrr>

Bob Wilson

 

Looks like a Gen 1 Insight with some lipstick on it.