Project Lithium Soother Test

Looking for my popcorn.....

This is like the most perfect example ever seen of two individuals, each from complete opposite ends of the spectrum, about to have a discussion....

 

If I were to tell you who sent me the Signal Soother, what value would that add to my analysis?
Regardless, I will not disclose the sender, as I promised them anonymity.

If you think there's foul play (e.g. that the person who sent me the soother somehow modified it), then please send me your Signal Soother and I will verify my findings are the same... or if you don't trust that I'm properly analyzing the circuitry, send your SS to another EE and have them verify my findings.

I explained them in full detail in the video I posted last night.

I specifically addressed this logical fallacy in my video.
In short:
-if the lithium cells are in good health - and it sounds like yours are - then the Signal Soother is unnecessary, but;
-if lithium cell(s) have failed, then the Signal Soother hides this from the BSU, which is dangerous.

Simply that your pack hasn't failed doesn't mean the Signal Soother is safe. That's not how safety systems work. Your good fortune thus far is a classic o-ring logical fallacy. The Prius' traction battery system should be designed to SIL2, which isn't the case with NexCell, and certainly isn't the case with Signal Soother. Please make an attempt to understand safety risk analysis in engineered designs if you wish to continue this particular "mine hasn't failed yet so it's ok" logical fallacy.

I don't care how many views I get... that's not what drives me. Your one view is meaningless to me, but would be useful for you, since it answers every question you asked herein.

To prevent you from willingly sticking your head in the sand, here's a compressed version of the video I created just for you. Feel free to download it and educate yourself... without giving me the pleasure of having your one single view added to my youtube stats. To reiterate, view count doesn't matter to me.

in B4 "I don't have time to watch your video". If that's the case, then you're arguing in bad faith, so I don't see any point in continuing to respond to your questions... but I probably will to a point.

This is an emotional statement that doesn't add any merit to the discussion...
...but I would argue that Jack is still "trying to find out how to build one for the prius".

I don't see why my face is important to discuss facts, but if you really must see it - and don't want to give me views - check out this video I appear in posted by someone unaffiliated with me in any way, except that he's a happy customer.

Note that I do show my face sometimes in my videos, but again you don't want to give me views so no need for me to link one... but wait, it would appear you did watch my video, or else you wouldn't know that I don't show my face in it.

It'll keep on working until it doesn't. I'm surprised it was 100 degF below ground where your head was buried.

Again, simply that your pack hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it won't. A->B != B->A.
Whereas, I was able to reproduce the exact failure mode reported in "My Project Lithium Pack Caught on Fire" on my front porch in fifteen minutes. The smell is terrible.

That's great! I hope your good fortune persists. You should come visit my casino.

In short:
-when the Signal Soother is installed, the OEM BSU averages out the voltage of QTY10 Nexcell cells, whereas;
-when the Signal Soother is uninstalled, the OEM BSU averages out the voltage of QTY5 Nexcell cells.

In other words, the Signal Soother takes an already deficient design (see my previous video) and makes it twice as worse.

Secondary issues to explore if you're volunteering to perform real-world tests (that might let out your Signal Soother's magic smoke):

Theory A: Signal Soother violates service plug safety element. This presents an electrocution hazard even when the service plug is removed!
A1: Remove service plug
A2: Remove battery cover
A3: Measure voltage from HVDC+ to HVDC-. You should measure a non-referenced (i.e. floating) voltage, which typically manifests by the voltage meter slowly drifting around until it reaches 0 volts. However, I propose you'll read close to the actual pack voltage... dangerous!

Theory B: HVDC isolation issue will cause SS to self destruct if ignition turned on while service plug is removed.
B1: Disconnect the service plug
B2: Turn the ignition on and wait for CEL
B3: Turn ignition off, then reinstall service plug
B5: Turn ignition on and clear stored CEL
B6: Is everything still working properly? I would expect damage to the V4/V5/V6 opamp circuits on the SS... because they're going to get a low impedance HVDC jolt when the precharge circuit attempts to charge the PDU capacitors.

Looking forward to seeing your results.

Ok.

Ok. It was hot. Cool.

The great thing about facts is they're easy to reproduce. Anyone else with a Signal Soother should be able to follow along and recreate my findings.

 

I fail to see how their identity is relevant to the analysis.

It sure does not sound like you are interested in any sort of analysis. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Cool.

Let's go with that for a moment. By that logic, if at least some engineers that designed part of the Prius actually own other vehicles, should we avoid driving a Prius? If so, what car would you choose?

No one cares for your ad hominem attacks. I, for one, am deeply interested in the engineering of the Honda retrofit.

Do you know all the Prius engineers by face? How are their faces relevant to the engineering of the vehicle?

 

I recommend visiting CostCo tomorrow and pickup up a full pallet, because UPS is delivering another package tomorrow afternoon. Should have another NexCell product review up late tomorrow night. Hope the package doesn't get delayed, as I'm out of town for a week starting Thursday morning.

Agreed: it's facts versus feelings, science versus gospel, data versus dogma, evidence versus emotion. All right here coming to you live in this tiny little niche on the internet.

 

For a lithium battery to function properly, EACH cell must be monitored and kept within the same. SOC range.
Nexcell does not control every cell - this is a huge problem! Second, the signal shooter replaces the signal from the blade (5s2p) and does not allow the battery ECU to understand at least a little what is happening with the battery.

Are you so protective of nexcell, do you work for them?

 

If you could look past your own gains... you'd see every statement I've made is about helping the community have a reliable battery alternative. Jack, like me... is human and not perfect. Never crossed my mind that he nor my knowledge cant be challenged. You see... there is this thing called passion that we are in possession of, passion into something we actually care about... stick to what you know Honda boy versus coming around here with your smoke and mirrors! Until you've got something viable that helps, why try and tarnish the guy and what he's worked hard for is my take! I mean hell, obviously, he's doing something right if he's got you chasing his coat-tail... kinda of reminds me of that offroad joker who loves to mimic the products from my brainchild that I single-handedly released first!

It's in your DNA tho, to plunder and attack that of which you want to then try to claim it for yourself.. American way I guess... throughout history, yall keep doing the same thing, take the ideas from those who.... ahh. nevermind. Just know me, others... we see the foul stench on your words and we aren't drinking your unsweetened kool aid

 

Yes, this video is a pretty standard "mudder filmed a factual video explaining technical deficiencies" deficiencies.

I'm confused, because previously you stated you wouldn't watch my video because you didn't want to increase my youtube view counter.
If you'd like a refund, please send me a PM and I will cheerfully refund the money I received from your view.

I will not engage with your ad hominem attack. However, I'm curious if you've ever attended a technical lecture?

Also, I have a great story about when and how I procured my "little wooden arrow"...
...but I doubt you want to hear it, so nevermind.

Please elaborate on how this is misleading? Let's start by defining that word.
Again, I will reiterate that if you doubt the provenance, you are welcome to send me yours.
Note that there was only one released version of the Signal Soother, as it was only briefly shipped from 2023DEC (at the earliest) to 2024MAR (shortly after my initial feedback following the "My Project Lithium Battery Caught Fire" post.

Seriously, you are doing a great job avoiding the actual technical concerns I raised in my videos. FUD 101 hero! Do you work for a political campaign?

Two points here:
1: I do have access to a Gen3 Prius... send me your address and I'll send you hardware to test. Make sure you have a fire extinguisher handy.
2: Counterpoint: So far I've laid out scientific observations based on my engineering training and experience, and so far you haven't attempted to disprove even a single 'theory' I raised. Ad hominem attacks aren't generally accepted in intellectual discourse... but we're on the internet.

I didn't attempt to hide this... in the video, I specifically stated that I had received the unit only hours prior to filming the video. So it wasn't even overnight... it was the same evening.

Again though, you're attacking the production quality, rather than the actual concerning safety statements I made in the video. Classic ad hominem with a faint appeal to emotion.

Great to hear you're open for testing. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you some specially prepared NexCell modules you can put in your car. I promise I won't under/over charge them, which would compromise their future capabilities... or, if you don't trust that statement, I can tell you how to manually prepare the cells in each test module. We can then put the modules in your car and you can enjoy the smell of QTY1000 sharpie permanent markers for the next few weeks.

So glad to see you did watch at least part of my video ... huge upgrade from before, when you were sticking your head in the ground.

I have a question: How is it that you envision engineers design things? Do you think that they go out in the field and just hit things with hammers until they break? I love that you continue to misunderstand the engineering process.

Scientific review distills easily reproducible theories, which the community can then challenge by finding a counterexample, or accept if the theory holds water. Of course, real-world anecdotal testing is important, too... but that comes later, during the Verification stage of the R&D design process. I would propose you look up the engineering differences between Verification and Validation before we continue this conversation.

Note that I've previously outlined two proposed test methods to verify my claims. I left the choice on which test to perform up to the naysayers... so please let me know whether you want me to test on the bench, or you to test in your car.

...

While you have the dictionary out, you should double check that you're using the word 'slander' correctly. To whit, please state any false statement(s) I've made regarding my technical analysis so far. I will proudly recant any (accidentally) incorrect statement(s) I make... people who can't admit when they're wrong tend to be bad engineers.

I've actually already stated this twice so far in this thread (and once in the video), so at this point I'm repeating myself, but:
I'll actually only be designing the BSU computer, which is separate from the battery. Technically my LiBSU product will work with existing NexCell packs, although I will design it primarily for use with NMC lithium modules, which have much higher energy density. Existing NexCell customers would theoretically be able to install LiBSU and then have a much safer lithium experience... but again I'm intending LiBSU for use with much higher energy density lithium modules.

Thanks! I'm always appreciative when people offer support for projects I'm working on.

 

That's great to hear! You keep stating this as if it supports your (unstated) argument that NexCell modules are safe. The primary point you're missing is that I'm talking about "what happens when something goes wrong", whereas all the cells in your pack are working properly. I'm thinking about the failure modes... you're thinking "it just works so it must keep working". Again, I'm glad your pack is working. Let's keep talking when that's no longer the case.

This is a false statement. Whomever you heard it from is lying to you (or you misunderstood something I said). To be clear:
-I have zero plans to "start [my] own HV battery to compete". Why would I go through the agony of creating a custom lithium pack, when I can repurpose existing lithium cells?
-Even with my existing Honda product (which I'm told "nobody cares about"), I use off-the-shelf lithium modules, designed by industry leading companies. It takes balls to think you can design a better battery for cheaper than the industry giants (LG, Panasonic, CATL, Samsung SDI, BYD, etc).

As I stated previously, I am designing a replacement BSU, which I will call LiBSU, which will work with any lithium chemistry. This is a separate component from the energy storage component (i.e. the battery). LiBSU is BYO Battery... use it with NexCell modules, or another other repurposed lithium chemistry.

Which guy are you talking about?
Clarification: I wouldn't ever want "what Jack has". With your rose-colored glasses, can you please explain your vision of "what Jack has" right now?

I disagree: it takes experience, time, and effort to properly evaluate an engineering design.

Remember: My primary goal here is to point out design defects that cause safety issues in a product offered for sale to customers. If that's what you think 'bashing' is, then fine, I'll keep 'bashing' (by your definition) Nexcell until they either stop selling unsafe products, OR they release a safe product.

Remember: @jacktheripper is free to contest my claims at any time he sees fit. I would love to see @jacktheripper reply to this thread with "mudder, this statement is false because...". If @jacktheripper has the technical prowess you believe he does, why hasn't he done so already? Jack's silence is deafening. I will absolutely recant and apologies if my technical 'theories' are incorrect. Again Jack, the floor is yours.

 

Please remind me again what my "own gains" are in releasing an open source companion BMS that works with 3rd party lithium modules (including NexCell, if you so desire)? if Jack wanted to, he could straight up incorporate my open source design into his product, without ever paying me one cent... that's what's so beautiful about open source: information wants to be free!

Or, are you proposing that for some reason I should only offer LiBSU as a closed source product, so that I have something to 'gain' by raising safety concerns with an existing unsafe product? I'm not opposed to making LiBSU closed source if it ultimately helps you vilify me so you can sleep better at night.

I'm jiving with your statements up to here...

...but then you immediately contradict yourself. I suspect your "Honda Boy" ad hominem is meant to insult me, but I actually like that name. My skin is thicker than the internet, but I encourage you to please keep trying... maybe an arrow will get through a chink in my armor someday. If you throw enough s!@t at the wall, eventually something is bound to stick. Of course, I'm much more apt to discuss technical merits (or deficiencies), but when you play with monkeys...

Bless your heart that you think I'm chasing anything. First I was chasing dollar dollar bills, and now I'm chasing Jack himself. Bless your heart. And don't you worry, I won't be mimicking a single concept from NexCell... I suspect eventually it'll be the other way around, if NexCell sticks around long enough to bear the fruits of my labor.

Please tell me more details about how Mr. Joker mimicked your brainchild. Apologies in advance, as I'm not familiar with the particulars here (please enlighten me), but people often think a concept is a product. How far did you get before Mr. Joker?

Again you fail to understand my goal: to properly inform the public when an unsafe product is offered for sale. I'm astonished that Jack is still selling these packs. At some point it becomes willful negligence. NexCell owes its customers a duty of care, which they are breaching by continuing to sell an unsafe product. If customer(s) suffer injuries or damages related to this breach in care, that's going to be a huge product liability case, with a failure to warn prejudice that will dramatically increase punitive damages.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I manually re-read your post#87 and see that you have an "@Xeico" at the very beginning. Looks like the program I use to parse and reply to discussions in this forum stripped that syntax for whatever reason.

Note that I typically reply to specific quotes to prevent this type of confusion. Of course I'm not telling you to change how you reply, and of course I will modify my forum reader to properly parse your first-line '@' replies in the future.

Now that I understand you were replying to someone else, that resolves pretty much everything in my reply to your post#87. Please feel free to revisit anything I've left hanging.

Excellent. I'll let you know when I have an Alpha product to ship you.

I fail to see why I need to "come up with a product" before I can offer safety related feedback regarding another product offered for sale.

I will continue to comment as I please until I am satisfied that Jack is either shipping a safe product, or stops shipping unsafe products.

Maybe this is lost in translation, but it sounds like a veiled copypasta threat.
My response assumes your statement is in good faith:
I'm not joking either. I've added you to the LiBSU Alpha customer list. More details to follow once LiBSU exists as more than a concept.

 

My engine runs on water man!!!! My new battery runs on water man! It's smoooooothhhhhhh....

 

@black_jmyntrn and @AzusaPrius I would like you guys to directly answer a few questions.

Question 1:​

If the entire intent of the Signal Soother is to obfuscate and alter signals from the pack in a way to prevent a failure code... does that seem like a good idea on it's face when something is knowingly wrong with the pack and no investigation has been done to see what that is??? Do you see the danger in that?

Significant errors are being detected to cause the Prius to go into limp mode... then you install a device that masks the error, allows the Prius to operate at full capacity, and slowly the underlying problem degrades further and increases the risk of a dangerous failure condition. How does this make sense in anyway as it relates to the safety and longevity of the Project Lithium Battery?

Question 2:​

Let's take an extreme example/hypothetical.. Say a Module was melted or in the process of melting in the pack and the Prius Battery ECU detected an error... causing P0A80 and limp mode so the Prius could protect itself.

Without any sort of investigation... Jack sent out a Signal Soother to be installed to prevent the error code even though the pack was in the process of melting. The pack then failed and melted completely to the point of smoking and the Prius still didn't throw an error code this entire time because the Signal Soother was masking any and all errors. Would you say the implementation of a Signal Soother in this scenario was the correct and responsible thing to do or a dangerous idea?

Question 3:
​

Let's take a Hyper-extreme hypothetical...

What if the Signal Soother was actually a device that tricked the Prius Battery ECU into thinking the Hybrid Battery was in perfect condition at all times. It completely eliminated all possibility of error codes registering with the car ECU's even if there actually were errors... Would that make sense?

@AzusaPrius and @black_jmyntrn answer these questions directly and be specific as to what you believe and why. Again, please be specific.

 

So have I... at least 95%+ of packs that are on the road anyways.

Never say never... your regenerative brake current is constantly be limited to 13hp (10,000 watts) due to your Hybrid Battery being a minimum of 104‐116°F+ at all times from being in Arizona with 100°F temps. If you were instead in a cold climate like @sworzeh with a long mountain descent that allows 33.5hp (25,000 watts) of input at all times... you might just have a thermal event. Keep an eye on the Charge parameter in Dr. Prius... make sure that sucker stays under 25hp at all times. If your Hybrid Battery is ever between 77-104°F and allows the maximum regenerative braking of 33.5hp in as a result on long descents... good luck.

Lol... the reason you haven't had any issues yet is exactly because your Hybrid Battery is so hot... anything above 125°F... the HV ECU severely reduces charge going in and out of the Hybrid Battery from 28-33.5hp (20-25,000 watts) to less than 10hp (7,500 watts). Monitor the Charge and Discharge parameter in Dr. Prius when your Hybrid Battery is hot compared to room temp and see what I mean! No wonder you don't have any issues! Your Battery is living a sissy's life... Not to mention... the Signal Soother was created because of cold climate issues... not hot.

I too was a beta tester for Jack for a year @AzusaPrius... I can just see through the lies and obfuscation a lot better than you.

We can have battle of who was/is the better beta tester if you want? Since apparently this gives you some sort of authority. I'll start...

Despite publicly criticizing the Hybrid Battery design and explaining why the Signal Soother was such a bad idea on Reddit... Jack still offered to pay me to Beta Test:

Full Context to Reddit thread
​

At this point there was no chance I would be continuing to Beta Test. Jack had lied one to many times at this point and was implementing a product (Signal Soother) that was dangerous and putting customers vehicles and lives at risk of serious damage. The whole point of implementing the Signal Soother was to delay the rate of failure of his products to avoid paying warranty/refunds and protect Project Lithium's marketing image... But it simultaneously put customers vehicles and lives at risk and Jack knowingly did this or at least realized this could be a consequence. The end result of that being the thread My Project Lithium Battery Caught On Fire by @sworzeh. As of yet... there has been no public acknowledgement of this incident outside of commenting on the local internet threads that I'm aware of... which is unbelievable.

@AzusaPrius... Don't you think the fact that even after publicly criticizing and being very methodical in my criticisms of his Hybrid Battery/Signal Soother... the fact that he offered to pay me (for a 2nd time) to continue to Beta Test is pretty telling? Has Jack ever offered to pay you to Beta Test (Outside of your affiliate links)?

Here is every video I made beta testing for Jack in the interest of full transparency. All this was done completely of my own accord without being asked:

https://youtube.com/shorts/9fQvFVtCm8M?feature=share

​

 

how many miles on her?

 

You did not answer any of my hypothetical questions directly like I asked... please engage with the questions directly one by one... and provide well thought out methodical answers to why you agree or disagree with what I'm saying.... I'll provide you with an example of the type of reply I want..

Begin Example​

Installing a Signal Soother with detected error codes in a pack makes sense because the Signal Soother, even though the pack is failing and has a detected error, allows the Prius to continue running without errors. This is good and not unsafe because the Lithium Modules can tolerate a higher voltage variance and are safer than NiMh. So even if there are issues with the Lithium Pack... the Signal soother is an okay temporary installation.

End Example​

What Mistakes specifically? Was something done wrong in my installation video below:

You don't need a Signal Soother to understand what it does on a Macro level. The Signal Soother's design purpose was to fake signals from the Hybrid Battery to prevent failure codes from actual problems... was it not? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Why did the fire in @sworzeh's Battery occur?

Maybe that's true... but others may not be so lucky before a catastrophic failure occurs.

Notice in your earlier post here how hot the modules that failed were in comparison to the others?:


Temp sensor 3 wasn't even on those two modules... probably on #11 or 12. That's a 40°F difference. They were probably even hotter than your readings. The Signal Soother is most certainly not a device I would have installed with an already failed pack as measured per the Battery ECU.

Do average temps ever get below 40°F? You live in Arizona correct? That's not cold.

Not true... the HV ECU throttles charge in/out long before the Hybrid Battery fan kicks on to high at 130°F. Regen Brake begins to reduce at 104° while discharge doesn't reduce until 116°F.... all charge and discharge will be significantly lowered starting at 116°F.

What happened with @sworzeh then?

Yes... a Signal Soother in a healthy pack won't cause any issues... a Signal Soother in a failing pack will cause issue. You're not proving anything by uploading pictures of your pack with a Signal Soother installed while it is healthy.

Below is the potential end result of the Signal Soother when it is installed in a already failing pack:

​

You are the only one spilling nonsense. The entire foundation of the Signal Soother is a massive oversight in safety and logic. In no circumstance should this device be installed to a pack in general but especially a already failing one... as you are reducing the Battery ECU's ability to detect an error in a timely or safe manner by faking the raw signals coming from the pack. @AzusaPrius is what I just said a true or false statement?

Also... please address the fact that Jack offered to pay me twice to continue beta testing... even after I publicly criticized the idea of a Signal soother:

 

It seems to me that you don’t understand what you’re talking about at all. Why would I waste my time explaining to someone that their product is bad? Yes, I also make a battery, but I don’t sell it, it’s my hobby and until I’m sure of it, only I will use it.