Prius Shuts Down In Snow

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Feb 6 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]386176[/snapback]</div>

They do look cool.

From the site faq:
No, just stop your car and engage the handbrake. Make sure the car is not on a slope during fitting. Pull the AutoSock over the driving tyres and downwards as far as possible, and then move the vehicle approx. 1m, to pull the remainder into position. AutoSock will automatically become centered when you start driving. If you are stuck, do as above, but then make a small wheel spin instead of moving the car.

There's a couple movies at that site that make it look like you can just put it on when you hit bad conditions. Has anyone else ever tried these?

http://www.autosock.no/default.aspx?aid=9052366

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Feb 6 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]386185[/snapback]</div>

ya nice, even without english i get the picture. heck if it aint too much i be willing to try it. i have chains but they are a pita to use

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DeadPhish @ Feb 4 2007, 08:33 PM) [snapback]385324[/snapback]</div>

I can tell you firsthand that the problem has NOT been solved, electronically or otherwise. At least not in my 2006.

The traction control continues to be, I think, one of the most obtrusive features on the Prius. It's not proportional in application, is triggered too easily, and I find it highly counterintuitive to release the accelerator in an attempt to turn off the system and regain traction so I'm not broadsided by a truck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Feb 6 2007, 08:03 PM) [snapback]386176[/snapback]</div>

hi.. no its easy peacy to get on,, and You can drive op to 50km/h and better ridecomfort aswell compared to chains. washable aswell. works nice with the ABS aswell. they do not get damaged that easely , but you take them of when your done with the icey parts of the road..
But its not a complete replacement to chains , in lotsa snow and simmilar they are not that impressive, but much better than bad tires. and they dont damage your car... on slippery ice and simmilar they are great, just put on your whool socks and go out on some ice and u wil se the effect. people with only summer tires and get snow a few times, this should be in the car,, less caotic one the roads hehe

if You wanna buy , be sure You get the original,, there are some copies...



http://www.autosock.us/

cheers
Andreas

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 6 2007, 07:53 AM) [snapback]385962[/snapback]</div>

Could be. When I had the Agilent VSA plugged into my car, with the CANBus dongle, I saw no indication of such. But that was for about 10 mins.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 6 2007, 07:53 AM) [snapback]385962[/snapback]</div>

The one time I tried a "cold soak" at my hobby farm, leaving the car outside overnight at -25 F, the MFD didn't even come on when I powered up. Good thing there are backup buttons on the steering wheel for defrost and temp select. The screen came to life once the car had warmed up a bit

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 6 2007, 07:53 AM) [snapback]385962[/snapback]</div>

Yep when I tried to take a run at that one gravel road hill I kept bogging down on, the VSC really screwed things up. Made the car act downright scary. Good thing my co-worker towed me up with his Lexus RX300

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(andreaswin @ Feb 6 2007, 02:24 PM) [snapback]386154[/snapback]</div>

Andreas

I'm quite pleased with this tire

http://eu.goodyear.com/no_no/tires/piggdekk_vinter

In Canada, it's called the Goodyear Nordic. When studded, they work very well on ice. However on dry road they are loud.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Feb 6 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]386220[/snapback]</div>

Well, I finally got a good chance to try it out yesterday on my 2006 (no VSC). I've been curious about it since the thread started, remembering the one occasion where I didn't accelerate near as fast as expected, with one tire on ice, and the other on questionable surface.

But yesterday, as anybody in Chicago knows, we got a good snowstorm and the roads were slick! Surprisingly so for cold temperatures (0'F, -18'C => fluffy snow). I went home early, which was probably a good thing listening to all the accidents listed on the traffic report. Anyway, there's some pretty steep hills in a residential area near my home that weren't plowed yet, so I went to try them out. (Steep is a relative term, just a moderate incline for much of upstate New York, but surprisingly steep for the Chicago area, rising up probably 60 feet about in a short block).

With a couple inches of snow I could feel the tires alternately spin and grip, spin and grip, spin and grip. I could also see the speedometer oscillating. I stopped at the bottom of the main hill and was able to accelerate up it, not quickly, but under control, for the whole distance, getting up to about 10 mph on the steepest part. The TC light was flickering as expected. If I tried to let up on the gas to avoid spinning, I wasn't able to maintain my speed very well. I tried it a couple times but didn't want to get the homeowners nervous as it is a posh neighborhood and it seemed they were all out shoveling (don't they have jobs?). I also played around with it on the flat stretches, brakes, curves a bit, etc. Coming from northern MN, I've driven a variety of cars in the snow, and while it doesn't compare to my old Subaru with AWD, I had no problems with it, and I now feel pretty comfortable taking it thru snowy/slippery conditions. It's second nature to me to back off the gas when the wheels spin, but there wasn't a need for that in the Prius. Of course I realized that pressing the gas harder wouldn't help me move faster.

Now I didn't try it with one wheel on ice and the other not (but neither did the Jaguar driver in that video). If I see that situation, I'll try it.

Just my experience. YMMV

 

Hmmm maybe it's because you don't have the optional VSC and I do? I'm grabbing at straws at this point, and I hope you realize it.

I would *love* to drive a Prius the owner claims to be working "properly" on snow/ice, just to see if there really is a difference. I fear there are so many variables involved here that posting on this thread will turn out to be fruitless.

I should also mention that since I put on my new studded Goodyear Nordic tires, I've had no issues at all in city driving. The extremely bitter cold temps have made ice fog, which can really slick up the roads. Quite a few accidents. But my Prius now acts as if it's on rails.

Indeed, after work I had a few errands at St Vital Centre mall. On the way back to my place, heading west on Bishop Grandin, a pickup followed me rather closely until the Pembina exit. As soon as we went down the underpass and started on the curve, he started going sideways.

I *love* it when that happens to a numnut 4x4 driver!

But in deep snow, I still have the problem with the car shutting down. It happened at my hobby farm Dec 31 after the blizzard, the TC light blinks but no power, even if you keep it floored.

I did check - again - with my dealer, and a different Toyota dealer, about this issue. They claimed my Prius had all current TSB's and flashes, though they were vague about the Trac issue.

 

Hi Nerfer and Jayman,

There was 3 inches unplowed in the industrial park at work, and 5 inches at home. The main streets were plowed at home, and only the parking lot at my apartment building was not. Had no problems. Forced the car into full TC and it did seem to slow ever so slightly compared to balancing on the impending edge of TC, but kept moving. I am using Hydroedge tires. Possibly the directional tread is advantageous in snow? I was not on pavement at all in the industrial park, and its about a mile and half out to the main road. But all flat. My car is a 2006 bought in February of 2006.

My bigger problem was getting the car warm is the stop and go traffic right out the door at work. As soon as there was a 50 mph stretch it was fine. The problem was mostly because I had to run the heater to keep the windows clear. This was unusual for us here. Its usually does not snow when its that cold. The snow was just exquisite powder. Litterly blew it off the car, it was so light weight. That is what they get in Denver, not Chicago...usually!

Jayman, some other posters have had troubles with the VSC. There was the thread about "My Prius is trying to Kill ME!" . The poster was on a slick turn lane, probably too fast for the turn, and the VSC kicked in and steered him straight toward the exiting line of cars, rather than let him make the turn. Similar situation to the wild ride I had with my Prius before the BT Tech plate. Do you (did you) have a BT Tech plate, or another other aftermarket floor brace on your car? I think in that situation, there was a weird feedback between the chasis wiggle, VSC and TC. The VSC probably detects the chasis wiggle. I know I could, no reason why an electronic gyroscope should have any trouble doing that. I had to train myself to ignore the wiggles that were above a certain frequency, to avoid doing PIO, until I got the BT Tech plate.

A static start is not going to be VSC effected of course, and your having that problem. Could be multiple problems. When I have done trouble shooting, and been amazing at it (no modesty here), is when I gave up on the idea that its one problem, or one fix (if its a new product).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Feb 6 2007, 02:03 PM) [snapback]386176[/snapback]</div>

Here's a quote

Does the vehicle have to be jacked up to fit AutoSock?

No, just stop your car and engage the handbrake. Make sure the car is not in a slope during fitting. Pull the AutoSock over the driving tires and downwards as far as possible, and then move the vehicle approx. 1m, to pull the remainder into position. AutoSock will automatically become centered when you start driving. If you are stuck, do as above, but then make a small wheel spin instead of moving the car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 7 2007, 09:18 PM) [snapback]386738[/snapback]</div>

In October I purchased from Canadian Tire studded Goodyear Nordic winter tires. In the EU they're called the Goodyear Ultra Grip 500:

http://eu.goodyear.com/home_en/tires/repos...p?page=benefits

If you click on "Profile" a flash movie loads, going to great lengths to explain the tread construction and the wet weather advantages. As you can see, they are heavily siped and directional. Back in early December when we had heavy RAIN - so hard to believe with the bitter cold - the tires did a great job evacuating the water on rain soaked roads.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 7 2007, 09:18 PM) [snapback]386738[/snapback]</div>

Blocking the grille makes a huge difference. You should at least try to cover the bottom grille, or the two top slits. Especially in temps colder than 0 F, you'll be glad you did.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 7 2007, 09:18 PM) [snapback]386738[/snapback]</div>

Nope, the suspension is completely stock. The only time I had trouble this winter was in two feet of a snow drift that had been churned up by other vehicles. With just several inches of snow, or glare ice, my car works fine with the studded tires.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jendbbay @ Feb 7 2007, 05:21 PM) [snapback]386741[/snapback]</div>

there is actually another post that actually has a video of autosocks being installed and its MUCH easier than chains and best of all, one of the 3 or 4 nationwide distributors is in Tukwila which is about 45 miles away. thinking on taking a drive up there to pick up a set directly from them. as i said, i have chains but HATE putting them on and after seeing the demo of how the tire socks go on, i am convinced that i'd rather do them first and only do chains if i have no other choice.

 

Hi Jayman,

Yep, I have the top grill blocked, and the bottom grill is blocked about 75%. The top grill is blocked with the Efusco method, only using the PE foam (cheap) tubing insulation. And the bottom grill is blocked with short segments of 1/2 inch water tubing insulation. This leaves only the bottom slit open , and whatever stray leakage there is between the segments (where the verticals are on the grill). I also have about 3 inches of grill open top-to-bottom on the driver side, to be sure to keep the inverter and motors happy.

The problem was the slow traffic. If it would have been moving along at 15 mph, it would have just been fine. But it was start and stop , no more than 5 mph for the first half of the trip. Took two hours to drive home the 23 miles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 8 2007, 07:40 AM) [snapback]386889[/snapback]</div>

That will do it. My first winter without the winter front, in temps of -40 and with similar commuting horrors, my tank average was 9.9 l/100km or about 28 MPG.

 

I am convinced that there are 2 factors involved here. 1), there are different driving styles and past experiences. This results in some drivers thinking there is, or caussing their own, problems. 2) the VSC MUST be programmed differently or it kicks in differently in different Prii.

I say this because it is impossible for all these drivers to be having different experiences "just because".

For the record, I have had zero problems with the VSC and TRAC in my '05.

 

My guess is that the Prius has too much torque at low speeds and it causes the tires to immediately lose their grip. The automatic transmissions or clutches of regular cars can more smoothly ramp up power to the wheels from a stop, while the Prius, with no clutch or transmission fluid, provides a more immediate pulse of power that is strong enough to break the grip of the tires on slick surfaces.

By the way, I have a 2005 with brand new Goodyear Comfortreds and I got stuck on ice on a very slight uphill road. However my wheels did not "refuse to turn". I could hear them spinning at about 2 or so revolutions per second. Sometimes the left would spin, and sometimes the right would spin. I still wasn't going anywhere though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Feb 9 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]387493[/snapback]</div>

Technically it's the Traction Control, not the VSC. I'm not opposed to the idea there might be TC/VSC interaction.

Since I've had a chance to drive vehicles with "real" traction control, I know how the vehicle should perform under such conditions. The 2006 Range Rover HSE, around $100,000 Cdn plus taxes, that my co-worker drives is one such vehicle. With the studded Nokian winter tires he had specially imported for that vehicle, it's unstoppable.

I recently test drove a 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0R Premier with electronic traction control. Like the Range Rover, it will pulse the brakes on a spinning wheel to get you moving.

So if one side of the vehicle is on dry pavement, and the other side is on glare ice, either the Range Rover or the Subaru will accelerate from a dead stop almost normally. With the studded tires, my Prius finally isn't helpless under such a condition, which around here is actually quite common in winter.

It was deep snow on Dec 31 that made my Prius grind to a stop and refuse to budge.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 9 2007, 04:40 PM) [snapback]387623[/snapback]</div>

Surely the permanent four wheel drive of the Range Rover or the all wheel drive of the Outback help just a little bit to give it an edge over the Prius. Don't you think?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Feb 9 2007, 04:00 PM) [snapback]387637[/snapback]</div>

Not in the worst case scenario of one side of the vehicle being on glare ice, and the other side being on dry pavement. A "regular" AWD is the worst, as there is also a center differential to allow full time 4wd operation. With regular "open" differentials in the front and rear axles, the wheel with the least traction will then receive ALL the power.

A conventional front wheel drive or rear wheel drive vehicle with "all season" tires in the same scenario - one side of the vehicle on glare ice and the other side on dry pavement - is particularly helpless. The wheel sitting on glare ice spins and you're motionless.

A car with advanced - or as I call it "real" - Traction Control will still move, even with "all season" tires. The brake will pulse on the spinning wheel, torque transfer will occur, and the car can easily move. There are a few cars and suv's out there that have "real" Traction Control - brake the wheel that is spinning - and I've personally driven a co-workers 2006 Range Rover HSE and a new 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0 R Premier with that feature.

I have the same feature with my 1984 Ford F-150, ever since I installed the PowerTrax Lockrite rear end. Even with an empty box, the wheel on dry pavement can provide traction while the wheel on ice is along for the ride. If I floor it, the wheel on dry pavement squeals.

In my personal opinion, the "traction control" in the Prius is more to protect the PSD from catastrophic failure than to provide the driver with assistance in bad conditions. It appears for the vast majority of Prius drivers, the "traction control" is tuned just right to allow some wheel movement. In my case, once the car bogged down, the wheels refused to turn.

I did try a science experiment this weekend out at the hobby farm. Due to the -30 C temperatures I had the Prius in the shop, and I had the heater on awhile so I wouldn't freeze my fingers. I jacked up the driver side with my hydraulic floor jack.

I then got into the car, went into Ready, powered down the driver window, and carefully watched the driver wheel when I released the parking brake and put it in Drive: the wheel twitched, then refused to budge. The Trac icon on the dash was blinking.

I then tried Reverse with the same result. The wheel moved maybe an inch, then refused to budge, the Trac light blinking. To be sure of the results, I repeated by lowering the car, and jacking up the passenger side front wheel. Same results.

I've done this sort of "experiment" before, first with my 1984 Ford F-150. With the front hubs in Free, the transfer case in 2wd, I jacked up one side of the rear axle until that tire was off the ground. The truck easily drove off the jackstand. Last summer we even tried the same test - just for kicks - on my co-workers 2006 Range Rover. It was neat to watch how the wheel in the air would briefly spin, then the brake would apply and the vehicle would lurch forward.

I can accept that Toyota had to be careful with the drivetrain, as an electric motor at zero rpm generates maximum torque (Compare LRA to running amps). I can also accept that the same protection for the drivetrain would mean they couldn't use the brakes to provide torque transfer.

And I'll state again that with my studded tires, this has become mostly a non-issue except in the deepest snow. Certainly on glare ice I no longer have problems, even if one side in on ice and the other side is on dry pavement. But it's clear that some folks do have a serious issue, and we should work to find either a real solution, or at least an admission that a handful of Prius have some issues.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Feb 9 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]387493[/snapback]</div>

That's wonderful and I'm happy for you. What I would also like to do is get together with some Prius drivers in Winnipeg and see if there really *is* a difference. I would also like them to drive my Prius to see what if any difference there is.

The absolute last thing I would do is blame the driver.

 

Hi Jayman,


Very good test there. Now I know what not to do. Thanks. I am not going to stop on ice, or give any kind of accellerator input when I see ice on either side. I will try to coast over disimilar surface segments of road instead. Does not mean I wont get stuck though!

There does not appear to be any reason for the Prius to be programmed this way for the sake of the hybrid drive. The hybrid drive will not see the forces associated with locking up a slipping wheel, as long as the other wheel has traction. Those forces will be confined to the differential. The car really should only shut down like that after the second drive wheel slips.

When I bought my Prius, there was this uncertainty about winter performance. But, I do not drive cross-country in bad weather. I take a train, which I can walk to. And in Chicagoland itself the tollways at least, are well cared for.

Besides, there is a good reason Ohare airport is here. It just does not snow that much here compared to other nearby large cities, and the temps that would cause ice storms occur seldomly compared to like St Louis south to Dallas.

This does point out that there is an advantage to a two-motor drive. A motor can do traction control allot faster than a brake. Say one wheel (with direct attached motor) slips, the motor drive can instantly go into electronic gearing and pace the non-slipping wheel. When the current rises on the slipping motor (indicating regain of traction) the system can then go back to standard drive. The sensation of motor current gives an indication of traction. The differential would see very little dynamical force from this scheme at all. A better result than non-hybrid TC.



Hi again Jayman,

One way one might get out of being stuck on smooth ice under one wheel, would be to jam a ice ball up between the slipping wheel and the rear wheel skirt.

Then limp the car off the ice, go into reverse to release the ice ball, get out and kick the ball away.

Do you think this would work ? Kinda reverse traction control? Will the TC react to anti-slip? The wheel being stuck? Hmm....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 12 2007, 01:34 AM) [snapback]388752[/snapback]</div>

Never thought of that. However, at least in my case, the wheel refused to spin at all. A regular car, that probably would help though.