Prius or Jetta TDI

It seems like the heated seat, motorized seat thing is just not making profits. Not providing it is fatal because you can't advertise as having it. So Toyota makes it available only at the highest level of trim as an option. To discourage people from getting it.

Or maybe, if everyone gets it, it is so heavy and stuff, the mpg goes to 48 and that's definitely a bad public relations move.

 

This has got my curiosity, so I stopped in at my local dealership to ask about the Camry.

Apparently, the only Camry to offer lumbar support is the SE, SE V6, LE V6, XLE, XLE V6, and the hybrid model. The salesperson was unsure if the LE Leather Package added lumbar support to the driver seat

Its easy to see that option packages are confusing, and the content hard to understand. I do know that sitting in that 4 cylinder XLE in the showroom, the front seats felt light years better than my Prius or my FJ

 

I’ve put 5k now on my TDI. There are a few pros/cons that I think might be worth noting. I have a 2010 6 speed manual, sunroof.

- It’s just really fun to drive. Acceleration is exhilarating, and you can drive it in a spirited way, or use a high gear and really extend the MPG. In the most spirited driving tests with jack-rabbit starts off the lights I’ve never had less than 42mpg. My best highway trip mileage was 57mpg.
- Cool weather cuts into the mpg. I’m really not sure if this is from the greater wind resistance from the denser air or if the engine runs less efficiently. My hybrid colleges at work report the same. I’m a private pilot – air density makes a huge difference with small single engine prop and jet planes that I’ve flown.
- Rain makes a HUGE difference. I drove the same highway trip in dry weather at 54mpg, and in pouring rain (like 1+ in/hour) and got 44.
- Trunk space and driver space is terrific. I’m 6-2, and have plenty of room. I think the Prius trunk may cube out more, but overall the trunk is cavernous.
- The passenger headrest obstructs my view when taking a left had turn from a stop.
- The headrest angle isn’t all that comfortable.
- The black seats and carpets are a drag. They show all the dirt and dist. I’d rather a gray or something different.
- Comments at the diesel pump are comical. Like from a FORD F350 owner, “Hey buddy, that’s the only diesel pump, would you mind pulling forward. “ Yeah, I know, this is a diesel." GF in the truck says something to her BF like, “You think you know everything about cars.” BF says something like, “It must be a conversion or something….”
- Oil change interval is nice (10k miles), but the required synthetic oil is expensive – like $8/qt.

I think that’s about it. I’ll post more after I drive it more and get more experience with it. Overall, I’m very happy with the car.

BTW, for those interested, VW does have a diesel hybrid that boasts 69mpg. I’ve hear that it will be in the next generation Jetta.

 

Now that you've driven 5,000 miles you should have some actual mileage data, as in total miles and total gallons as of the last fill.

Had any trouble locating diesel when you wanted a fill? What's the "diesel premium" in your area running these days? (Extra cost of diesel compared to gasoline.) Diesel's running about 29 cents/gallon higher than gasoline here this week, a 12% premium.

p.s. Notice you fixed the "East Costs" location.

 

I currently live on the East Cost. I’ve lived in several places in the USA; Midwest, South, Southeast and Northeast, and the East and West coastlines are the mostly costly. It was a spoof. I'd rather be back in the South East.

No problem at all getting getting clean diesel, but I only have to find it every ~700 miles or so. Anecdotally, I’d conjecture that 70% of all filling stations in this area have clean diesel or bio diesel. Diesel is costing the same as premium gas here and about 10% more than regular gas. Not a bad premium to pay given the performance, driving enjoyment and incredible mileage. I most recently paid $2.72 – yes a “premium” over used cooking oil that I may blend when I’m out of warranty.

I trust all is well in the Midwest; with life being good and the dust-buster running strong.

 

This is true of non-hybrid gassers as well.

It isn't just the wind resistance and the greater engine heat loss. For gas engines, it is also the lower density fuel blend, and the greater part-throttle air pumping loss, sucking all that intake manifold vacuum past the throttle plate.

 

I'm still waiting for some longterm mileage calcs rather than individual tanks. This is a common theme in the TDI threads.

Didn't care much for the Southeast myself which is why I'm in the Midwest again. Folks down there thought way too slowly for my tastes. Found myself enjoying the trips North too much, it was nice to get decent service once in awhile as compared to the "Whuuu?" :huh: approach down there. I don't miss that at all.

Dustbuster? You've apparently never driven a Prius (as your errant cost analysis also indicated--8K, in what world?), they are extremely quiet and the batteries last a lot longer than any dust buster.

p.s. Clean diesel, is that like "clean coal" or "unobtanium?"

 

If one wants to "bench race", I wouldn't call a 16.6 @ 82.5 mph "exhilarating" (as obtained by Edmunds at Comparison Test: 2007-2008 V6 Family Sedans). That's a bit quicker than a 4 cylinder Camry (2008 Chevrolet Malibu, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry Comparison Test) but WAY slower than V6 family sedans (Comparison Test: 2007-2008 V6 Family Sedans).

I used to take my cars drag racing at a track (my Z and former 255 hp 02 Maxima) and I can tell you that even even a 1 second difference in the 1/4 is huge. IIRC, my Maxima would get in the high 14s, low 15s...

Drive any modern V6 220+ hp family sedan (or better) on the highway or even the Altima Hybrid (http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/altimahybrid/2008/testdrive.html). That will redefine exhilarating acceleration for you...

 

I also dragged cars - I do know what exhilarating it. You are right - this pales in comparison - but that was 25 years ago.

I test drove several when looking for this car, including the Altama, Insight, Prius, and Malibu. I find the stick/standard exhilarating, and it is far more exhilarating that my older General Motors V8 that I turned in

I should have also noted one other real shortcoming of the TDI where I think the Prius and other hybrids shine. Short trips (under 5 miles) where the engine doesn't have a chance to warm up to the normal operating temperature don’t bode well for high mileage. Expect high 20’s or low 30’s during this time. This should be a factor in the consideration of a TDI.

FWIW, I also believe the standard transmission gets more than just the 1MPG differential noted by Volkswagen. A friend driving a 2009 TDI with the tiptronic 6 sp auto seems to be averaging ~8-10% less.

 

And colder bearings and tires.

Tom

 

Hi Shawn, here's one of the more thorough long term graphs that I've seen:



With the 2.0 TDI CR only having been out for a year or so, long term results may be hard to come by. I know that a lot of TDI owners log their mileage at fuelly.com, if you spent some time perusing the data there, I'm sure you would find what you've been waiting for. The 2009's and 2010's are what you would be interested in, anything older is not the North American 2.0 TDI CR.

 

I was more pointing to the problem of Northernliving making various anecdotal claims, without supplying his average mpg. It's been a recurring theme in TDI discussions.

However, I did make a quick stab at the fuelly numbers, averaging the 29 diesel 2010 Jetta sedans (not the wagons or the "estates?") that I came across. The average was 39.4 mpg. That's about what I expected in terms of averages and the histogram.

For comparison's sake: our 2008 Prius' lifetime average is at 49.0 mpg calculated after 36 tanks. Summer/Fall/Winter last year was a learning curve, but we're averaging 51.0 mpg from spring until now. Colder weather and long interstate trips have brought the last two tanks below 50 and I expect it to remain in the mid to high 40's until March. Note: all of my tanks have been 10% ethanol fills unfortunately.

 

Estate is European terminology for a wagon. Anecdotal claims are commonplace, I see the same from Prius owners on tdiclub. Most people probably aren't as thorough as some of us and don't have a log of their lifetime fuel consumption, hence only providing memorable (either good or bad) results or numbers from their last tank. Personally, I can tell you with good certainty what my best and worst tanks have been as well as my last tank, but don't know my lifetime average without looking at my signature.

I'm not too familiar with where you're from. What kind of weather do you see in fall and winter? We have ethanol here too, I think it's between 5 and 10%. Seems to be a way of life for most people now.

 

I test drove a 2010 Golf Wagon tdi with dsg, and a 2010 Golf hatch tdi with 6 speed stick. Yes, the driving dynamics are quite nice, decent enough ride quality thanks to 4 wheel independent suspension.

I wouldn't call the tdi a drag racer, but it will do alright in traffic.

The VW tdi's sold here have block heaters, or can be equipped with them. That would help, so would a winter front but you'd have to be careful as the intercooler depends on outside air

True of any vehicle. A decent tire will evacuate water underneath to prevent hydroplaning. However, it takes work to evacuate that water.

I really liked the 2010 Golf Wagon Highline I test drove. Very nice seats, lots of storage space in back

I'm 6'1 and didn't notice those issues

They probably will. I can only imagine if you have a dog or cat riding in the car all the time

I don't engage in conversation at the gas station. If somebody had started off with comments like that, I would have replied with a comment that rhymes with "duck shoe"

The Prius also requires a synthetic 0W-20 oil with similar price, but you must change the oil every 6 months or 5,000 miles

Late this summer I secretly met with a VW Golf tdi owner in Winnipeg, at a gas station parking lot, and it looked like we were dealing in contraband substances. Actually, it was to sell him a 4 litre jug of Esso XD-3 0W-40, I use the same oil as a winter oil in the equipment at my hobby farm

http://www.esso.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENCVLESEsso_Xd-3_extra.pdf

Although it doesn't meet the exact VW spec, owners who have performed used oil analysis claim it works *better* than the dealership oil. I can get a 4x4 (A case of 4 jugs, each jug 4 litres) at $88

I also wouldn't be afraid of using Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40

Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40

But it costs a lot more. The Cummins HD oil spec, eg 20081, is appropriate as the common rail technology is very similar to the tdi

I'm still giving serious consideration to a 2010 VW Golf wagon tdi, but would prefer a 6 speed stick. There are enough reports of problems with the DSG that I would avoid it

 

In Manitoba, unleaded gasoline for road use requires 10% ethanol for 87 octane, and 5% for 89 octane. Premium gasoline does not require ethanol in Manitoba

Though the 94 octane premium from Husky/Mohawk does contain ethanol

 

I just took a 2010 Prius and Jetta TDI out back-to-back.
Prius was about $22k. Jetta $27k
The dealer's tank average was 39mpg. Don't know the Prius's.
Very night vs day cars.
Jetta typical German handling car. I like the Jetta handling, riding better.
Jetta was dark interior, all black. Prius was much lighter and airy feeling.
Jetta seemed to sit down lower (yes, it's adjustable), dash was a bit to see over. (I am 6') Again, Prius much more open feeling.
Jetta can get up and go. Prius not so much.

Neat things of note:
Prius - not belt driven accessories.
Jetta - object-sensing windows and sunroof. Stuck my arm out and press auto up/close and they reversed when it hit my arm. NICE
Jetta - electric steering. Turned off engine at 40 mph, and could still steer and brake the car just fine to a stop.
Prius - the keyless remote. Jetta has a key.
Jetta - real trunk can be locked out with key. Same with fuel filler. Nice for valet parking.
Jetta has nice full-sized spare. Not sure on Prius
This Jetta had the Tex (leatherette/vinyl). Prius had cloth

My take is if you want FE, no contest - Prius.
If you would take a bit less FE, but want/need more oomph or driving fun - Jetta

Not sure if one can outfit them more cheaply than what I drove, but roughly $4-5k difference is nothing to sneeze at, imo. They said one can get a tan interior in the Jetta with certain ext colors. I would like to see those. The all black was very dark. Neither car 'fit' me just right. I had quirks with both of them that I did not like. The Jetta's side mirrors were not large enough in my mind, either. Was unable to test either iPod integration. I'd be especially interested in the bluetooth streaming. I listen to my iPod (all day long) using Jabra BT adapter. Streams to my earpiece. But would like to hear it stream to radio unit.

 

You forgot to account for the higher cost of diesel fuel here in the US. It can range from 50 cents to over 1 dollar per gallon. So that needs to be calculated. The Prius will have a far better MPG.

 

Over the last year the difference in price has been between 10 and 30 cents. For about 4 months this year diesel was 10 cents cheaper than gas

 

I live around the Philly Pa area and diesel is 30 to 50 cents higher as of today.