Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

NEW MYTH?

I have heard, and (mea culpa!) repeated, that Toyota's original design research for the Prius drive system was heavily funded by the Japanese government. However, I've not seen any documentation of that, at least that I recall. I've googled around a bit, but ... is anyone else aware of this, or did I get in in one of my adrenalin highs while driving my Prius over 80 mph?

Road Fan

 

There is a 1972 TRW patent that describes how to build the CVT type transaxle Toyota used. Then there was a more recent patent that went into court to use small computers to handle the management task. That was the patent that Toyota lost in a Texas case.

Some of us think one of the best source of technology are USA patents. What is sad is these are not enough to sustain a domestic manufacturing industry ... Ford being one notable exception.

However, several USA government labs took NHW11 and NHW20s and conducted extensive reverse engineering analysis. They conducted fleet endurance studies as well as taking the cars apart and connecting them to dynometers. These reports are extensive, detailed and led to many of my experiments.

It is more accurate to say that US Government labs have laid out all of the basic engineering needed to make a Prius style hybrid. Ford had the good sense to work with Toyota and cross license the technology. Only GM and Chrysler pursued what remain dead ends or 'green wash.'

However, it is true the Japanese government funded research by:

• World class education - based upon year round schooling and first class education in math and science. Religous schools need not apply.
• World class healthcare - that keeps people alive and healthy well into their 80s and 90s. It is universal, not the anti-health system we continue to fund by Republican nonsense about socialized medicine and drugs.
• Universal retirement - so there is no question about whether you will have to eat cat food or live in a box when you can no longer work.

When you don't have to worry about survival or requiring unions for a living wage, life and retirement, you can focus on new products. Add to that a population with a high understanding of math and science and you've got a research lab that spans the borders of your country.

Bob Wilson

 

Who needs that much velcro?

Why would anyone need that much velcro? These guys sell it by the
hook and look and velcro the same thing?

 

What should be added to this is Gas is one of the most dangerous elements a human comes in contact with every day. 1 gallon of Gas is equal to 10 sticks of dynamite.

 

A now-deleted raid from what is most charitably described as 'another interest group' produced some real gems. Here is Hybrid Myths Q&A:

Hybrid Myths
Question: Will I be electrocuted if I touch a hybrid vehicle in a crash?
Answer: Other than if an external power source such as a down power line, no and this is no different than safety provided for a conventional vehicle rescue. The hybrid high voltage system is isolated from the body chassis.
Question: Will I be electrocuted if I touch a hybrid vehicle submersed in water?
Answer: No, while there maybe some electrical leakage, it will not be detectable simply by touching the body or frame of the vehicle.
Question: Is it necessary to call for a HAZMAT response if the high voltage battery pack is ruptured during a crash?
Answer: No, there is not enough electrolyte in the individual modules or in the entire battery pack. Leakage will be very minimal if at all, and usually will be contained with in the modules even if the casing was breached during a catastrophic crash. The electrolyte is considered a gel, having the consistency of a machine oil and is absorbed within a fiber material between the metal plates. Spills can be cleaned up with a suitable absorbent for a strong base, diluted with water and neutralized with vinegar.
Question: At a recent Toyota hybrid crash we saw a clear fluid leak and grayish vapor coming from the trunk, was this from the high voltage NiMH battery pack?
Answer: No, beside the HV battery pack, there are 12V conventional automotive batteries. In a severe rear end or offset crash the 12V battery maybe subject to impact. The reaction seen was similar to that of a conventional vehicle when the 12V automotive battery is ruptured during a crash.
Question: At a crash, is there a chance that the high voltage system will electrify the vehicle's body chassis?
Answer: No, there are several automatic sensory devices that will stop the high voltage flow. The SRS ECU upon activation of the airbags, will also send a signal to the hybrid system computer, the computer will then open the high voltage relays to the HV high voltage battery pack; preventing the high voltage flow from the battery pack. In essence, there are checks and balances to prevent this situation.


The rest of the page includes more information for Emergency Responders. Unfortunately, the aforementioned raid displayed evidence that these myths persist within the emergency response industry.

 

Another article from the previously mentioned thread: Hybrid Vehicles: Separating Fact from Fiction, from Fire Engineering.

"... Many myths and misunderstandings concerning the dangers of these vehicles’ new technology have circulated among emergency responders. Separating fact from fiction is paramount to enable emergency responders to properly handle these vehicles at incidents.

Some current myths about hybrid vehicles include the following:

• Hybrid vehicles are just a fad.
• A damaged hybrid battery module will leak a significant amount of fluid.
• Touching a hybrid that has been in an accident or is submerged will result in an electric shock.
• The high-voltage power system is difficult to disable.
• The high-voltage wiring hampers vehicle extrications.
• Hybrid vehicle fires require special equipment."

"... Although the media and other entities have hyped the dangers of hybrids, proper training and understanding of hybrid technology make them one of the smaller issues with which the fire service must contend. I drive a hybrid and am not concerned that I am placing myself, my family, or my fellow firefighters in unnecessary danger." (emphasis added)

More articles at a Hybrid Vehicle Info page.

 

those myths you speak of are not myths. They are actual USDOT and NFPA rules that we as professionals are required to follow.

The articles you quote are relevant in light crashes only.

We professionals have to follow federal state and local procedures regarding hybrids.

The toyota and other company ERG books are nothing more than glorifed maps of wiring locations to us. And even then they are only valid when the car is structurally intact

Key portions of that article

Never overhaul high-voltage components since there is no guarantee that the system is deenergized. The effects of fire can render system safeties inoperable. Live fire testing indicates that these components can remain live after exposure to fire.

Fact in a heavy collision like the one pictured in the article. You cannot tell where the wiring is anymore. You cannot de energize it using the methods in the toyota erg either

more interesting points from the article

Avoid any contact with the electrolyte because of the potential for human tissue damage. If necessary, contact CHEMTREC® [(800) 262-8200,

Bear in mind I have seen this happen twice this year alone

 

Q.E.D.

To repeat:
Standard PriusChat challenge: Pictures, or it isn't true.
Translation for you: URLs to documents, or it isn't true.

I'm painfully aware that NFPA charges significant fees for its standards, but the least you can do is cite specific standards and chapters. USDOT should have everything freely available online.

 

3 of us have cited them already only too be deleted. Its not gonna make a difference to you whether we do it again or not.

I just hope your happy when you have to wait 12 minutes after we find your key before we can do anything. And in certain states and municipalities that we do have to wait for hazmat in a serious crash. Those sir a facts that have been presented by several trained proffesionals here.

If you want when I get off tonight I will type the USDOT standards word for word. I have them marked in our state guidelines book at work.

 

You've already been called out on this by a moderator in the other thread, but apparently that's not enough, so I'll join in the discussion as an emergency responder of 36 years. This, by the way, is not to respond to you as much as it is to set the record straight for those that don't know any better and who might read your trollish post within this otherwise very helpful thread.

I'll also call BS. First, in a collision serious enough to activate air bags, the battery pack relays automatically open to shut down current flow. Second, rescuers are trained to disable the 12V power supply in any vehicle rescue situation, which also opens the HV battery relays. Third, the HV cables are isolated electrically from the chassis and are well out of the way of common rescue tool "bite" points. Fourth, although the system can remain energized for up to five minutes after shutdown, a well-trained rescuer will recognize the orange cables as being unique to a hybrid HV system and will avoid them.

These relays, BTW, are normally-open. With any fire-related (or other) failure of the electrical system, they default to open.

From my experience, genuine concerns among emergency responders (as opposed to hyperbolic hybrid hysteria like this) is rooted in ignorance and lack of training. Quality training has been available for years, and shame on responders and their agencies for not taking advantage of it. Further shame on them for spreading this crap ... if you really are a responder, which I question.

If ERGs are so useless, why do reputable training organizations use them in their training?

Neither USDOT or NFPA promulgates rules that govern responders. USDOT publishes training curricula for EMS responders. NFPA publishes voluntary standards, not rules. None of the NFPA standards specifically reference hybrid vehicles in their titles or, for that matter, vehicle extrication operating practices. If you know of one that specifies anything within the body of the standard, please cite the number. I won't take time to research every word of every standard, but I can get get ahold of a particular NFPA standard to do my own fact-checking.

The electrolyte is potentially hazardous in the rare event of leakage. So what? So is the electrolyte in the lead-acid battery that every car has. This, BTW, is not the purpose of CHEMTREC. CHEMTREC is a resource for emergency workers handling a chemical release in a transportation incident.

 

Chemtrec is also used for the above purpose.

Nice job quoting the toyota ERG book buddy.

Yes rescuers are trained to disable the 12v system in a normal light collision. Noone has disputed that. However when the collision doesnt grant access to the point how do you disable it. Every bit of research and training I have had including direct from toyota shows that these relays can also fail in accidents.

Mister 36 years as an emergency responder cite your credentials please

Here are mine.

14 year MN/WI cert 2 level firefighter. WTC degree in fire science
14 year MN?WI licensed NREMTI
5 year MN?WI licesnsed HAZ MAT Tech.

Various other trainings related specifically to hazmat, propane, train derailments. disaster preparedness.

Former State licesensed instructor. Gave that up due to the fact I no longer have time.

 

C'mon Jimbo ... time to tell us how big your d*** is.

 

Funny how you've been asked repeatedly to cite your sources, and you respond by asking me to cite credentials. What is it that lawyers say ... If the facts aren't on your side, attack the witness? OK, I'll play.

• 36 years in EMS, 24 in a high-volume suburban fire & EMS department with technical rescue and hazmat response teams
• 35 years, VA EMT
• 26 years, VA/NREMT-P
• 22 years, VA EMT-B Instructor
• 20 years, PHTLS and ITLS Instructor
• 15 years, Hazmat Operations
• 5 years, Firefighter II
• 8 years, National Fire Academy Instructor, Advanced Leadership Issues in EMS
• 6 years, National Fire Academy Instructor, EMS Management
• 5 years, National Fire Academy Instructor, EMS Management of Community Health Risks
• New, National Fire Academy Instructor, EMS Special Operations
• Various other training in Incident Command, Mass Casualty Incident Management, Vehicle Rescue, etc.
• Various other instructor cards held over the years
• A Prius owner who probably knows more about his vehicle than 99% of the owners out there.

 

Is that all, Jimbo? Clearly you're not qualified to speak about the Prius & EMS issues.

 

Jim whats your name. I have most likely taken one of your classes at the national fire academy?

 

Well one thing I know for sure. If I am EVER in an accident I really hope it's JimboK who responds to the call and not quadracer based on the above qualifications and attitudes...I have a feeling that these meatpuppet EMS people from the diesel forum would rather stand by and watch occupants trapped in a Prius (probably smashed into by a diesel monster truck) die than to help...at least one of them has already wished a Priuschatter would be involved in a serious accident...

 

Thank goodness, for a moment I was worried I might have to sit throught an 8 hour class and listen to you.

On another note, don't you have something more serious to worry about - hey I hear they have propane on trucks going down the road! I won't even go into the details of what we have on trains going through nearly every city in the US.

Put it in perspective please.

 

I could post the bills of lading as far as what goes through my area on trains. But the thought of it scares me enough. I dont wanna look at it.

Fact: Motor vehicle accidents are much more likely than train derailments

Jimbo since you seem to be so adept and say that USDOT has no regulatory power over EMS let me remind you of something.

Have you heard of the Highway safety act of 1966?

That is the act that gives the USDOT regulatory power

 

Um, no (other than the DOT approving each states' EMS program).

 

Sorry, I'll shut up now. :blush:

For privacy reasons, I don't generally list my full name publicly. Last name starts with K. If you've been in one of my classes, you should be able to figure it out from there. If not, PM me for further. We're straying off topic here.

As for the topic, I think I (and others) have made my point, so I'm done.