Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wolflady @ Jan 26 2007, 07:57 PM) [snapback]381440[/snapback]</div>

I like the spreadsheet also. I did not notice a benefit in California, at least: no smog checks are required.
This is a savings in time and money.

I did not understand why there was a savings on oil changes compared to similar vehicles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Dec 4 2006, 12:46 PM) [snapback]357433[/snapback]</div>

I like Facts. I am a Toyota Tech and I am Prius Certified.

Fact 1. First Gen Prius had a recall (Toyota likes to call them Special Service Campaigns or SSC's) We were resealing the HV battery and replacing the bus bars. In the opinion of every tech I have spoken with and my own opinion, the biggest bunch of BS I have seen in a long time. I worked on many with well over 100k. Since then I have had to replace only 1 first gen HV batt. Toyota covered it under warranty at 120k miles.

Fact 2. In my dealership, we have replaced about a half dozen HV batterys between ALL three Hybrid models. (Just a little bragging here, for the month of Feb we were the number 3 Prius seller in the nation. Cali dealers get a bigger allotment due to their emmissions regs. The owner of my dealership LOVES Hybrid technology.) BTW all of those HV's were under warranty.

Fact 3. Several sources including J.D. Power rate the Prius as being the most trouble free car onthe road bar none.

Fact 4. The number one concern customers seem to have is that they don't get the mileage they feel they should. I love these. I request to drive the car home over night and the next day, I show them 50- 60 mpg on the MFD. Then I explain to them how to pretend there is an egg under the gas pedal and the brake pedal. Most learn it quickly and get much better results after that.

 

The facts regarding the Prius stated in the article are erroneous or possibly even made up. First of all they compare a hummer at 300,000 and the Prius at 100,000? Life of the Prius they claim to be 100,000 when the spark plugs are not scheduled for their first changes until 120,000. Apples and Oranges.

The cost of sending the nickel all over the world? Several containers on a large container ship that is visiting those ports anyway is a lame excuse to bash a Prius Maybe we need Hybrid Ships.

Battery replacement cost? Toyota has not yet had to replace ONE Hybrid battery pack because of failure since they first started to make the car in 1997 in Japan. More costly to repair, I''ve got 20,000 mile on my 2007 and not ONE single defect. Safety? The Prius is in Fact Safer than the Hummer if you order the prius with the side airbags it has a 5 star rating.

There is a photo somewhere on this chat that shows a Prius that was hit head on by a larger car and the Prius passenger compartment was in tact and in fact all four doors opened. The other car needed it's door cut to get the occupants out.

With all leg room front and rear, the Prius is not classified as a Compact car. It has more front and rear leg room than my Lexus GS 300 had.

No one mentions the Prius hold less oil than most cars thus saving all that toxic waste. My BMW used to hold 8 quarts of oil.

People that want to bash the Prius will always bend the facts and make mistatements to aid their cause. The fact remains that the Prius is good for the environment, it is efficient and I for one cannot think of any other car that comes as close to making the EPA published MPG as the Prius does. We typically get low to mid 50's in commuting to Boston every day and high 40's for truly highway driving. We have reached 61 MPG on several tanks.

I say ignore these people who have their headsin the sand. I'm sure they are the same one's that think global warming is a Myth.

 

I have a fact that although not Prius, it does state claim to helping reduce emissions. It is a document regarding Bio Diesel emissions, mainly in rebuttal to Jayman. I diesel car running on Bio diesel will in fact meet of exceed the emissions of a Prius, provided the diesel engine has the proper filters and catalysts on it to reduce Nox emissions. I havent found CO2 claims on bio D yet though, but the fact stands, Bio helps reduce overall emissions tremendously. One thing in regards to CO2 and BIO D is its CO2 neutral due to the amount of CO2 produced is less than or equal to the amount of CO2 absorbed by the plants which it comes from. Need to locate that fact though, havent seen it in awhile.

Emissions PDF

ANother myth busted, "there arent that many of them on the road".
I hate to say it, but before I bought the Prius, I didn't even know what they looked like, now I see them all over the place. As with any car production, they arent going to flood the market with a newly designed car until they see what the sales figures will be, then and only then will they ramp up production to meet their expected sales figures. With gas @$3 a gallon now, more people will buy, and soon there will be more on the road than ever before.

Case in point, when I went to test drive my car, I didnt go to buy, just see what the car was like. I saw the dealers web site the previous Saturday and it was advertising special financing of 0% on the prius and they had 8 in stock. On Monday, my wife had 5 minute contractions, took her to the hospital, expecting that our son would soon be born, well, doc came in said, go home, you're not in labor, go walk the mall or something. So we scooted off to the dealership that I saw the ad on, and asked to test drive a Prius. Sales guy comes back and said they sold them all on Saturday. 8 cars in one day, gone, and they were all the package #2 and up. He double checked and they did have one left, it had just come off the truck. I was the first person to drive it off the lot, in fact during the test drive I smelled the oil burning off the exhaust system. They sold me the car that day, and I wasnt planning to buy. I liked the car, and was impressed with its roominess having experience with the Honda Insight, the other Hybrid I used to drive. I think once more people check out the Prius and realize it isnt a little sh**box that people think, more will sell.

I would say that debunks the myth. "there arent that many of them on the road"


BTW she gave birth the next day.

EDIT: From the EPA

Source

 

i heard a part of an interview on NPR, Talk of the Nation, regarding bio fuel and that they are really no cleaner overall then fossil fuels... anyone else here this, basicaly stating that this is not the answer.

question. Does the Prius use coal in its electric motor? If so what type of quantities are we talking about? i heard this from a friend.
Thanks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(R1200GS @ May 3 2007, 04:12 PM) [snapback]435003[/snapback]</div>

You mean haven't noticed the guy with a shovel flinging it into the boiler in the back? Or was that only on the first gen Prii?

 

Ha! yeah um no. i was assuming it meant to conduct or generate electricty. i'm not familiar with electric motors and what makes them tick. ICE is pretty well known. gas air spark pressure explosion moves pistons valves open and close letting air in and exhaust out etc. etc. how does an electric motor work? when said friend mentioned coal i was taken aback(SP?) but thought well maybe it conducts or stores electricity or has some atomic properties that make it useful in an electric motor to drive some process. i dont know, pardon my ignorance. if this is a stupid question a simple "no" would suffice. maybe my friend thought the car had to be plugged in which means it does run on coal in some form. topic for another discussin

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(R1200GS @ May 3 2007, 05:09 PM) [snapback]435037[/snapback]</div>

Stores electricity is the key. The car uses the Internal Combustion Engine (or ICE) to charge the hybrid battery pack (in addition to other things like recovering energy from braking or while cruising). The electric motor then runs off the energy in that battery.

Wiki explains it with a good deal more detail and accuracy than the oversimplication of the above sentence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

Toyota also has a very splashy website with lots of pdf files about it all if you've got a reasonably fast internet connection:
http://www.hybridsynergydrive.com/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(R1200GS @ May 3 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]435037[/snapback]</div>

Electirc motors in particular, independent of Toyota's HSD? Well, there are few different flavours - but this article at HowStuffWorks.com is a pretty good overview of electric motors in general:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor.htm

Great site all around, really.

Cheers!

Dave

 

Perfect. thanks dave i think this is good info for people to know. electric motors are kind of a mystery to a lot of people including myself. looks like this is what i was looking for.

 

I have something to add to the information on the PDF (yes I realize this thread goes way back so I hope its still relevant)

When I purchased my Prius this past saturday, one of the selling points that the rep made was that HP and Torque are different (duh right ) and that the Prius has more Torque than ANY Toyota on the market today with the exception of the Tundra. If this is true and can be confirmed (by someone with more car smarts than me) then it would be a good point to add to the power discussion as well as a mention of Torque over HP value. My limited understanding in a dumbed down version is that HP = staying power while Torque = get up and go. "Get up and go" to jump/merge into traffic is what most people are looking for rather than "staying power".

 

I just got my new prius almost a week ago (it will be one week tomorrow) and i'm still loving it. My co-workers (engineers by the way) continue to ask..so you don't have to plug it in..lol..and i keep saying no. They all are impressed with my milaged on the first tank 51.4 with 125 miles and not even down to 3/4 of a tank I must say its interesting to see how many people are out there that simply aren't informed. Even just a few trips to the dealer and looking at things online here at priuschat and else where made our decision a very easy one.

Thanks again for the input and hard work (well easy..the hard part is digging up the sources) on debunking all of those nasty rumors. I can't wait to show of the prius this weekend with our friends and family.

 

I had someone ask me if I have to plug it in, and I came up with a doozy.

Nope, just need to irradiate the Dilythium crystals every so often down at the Zion nuclear plant.


deer in the headlights look

Priceless.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Jun 8 2007, 07:29 AM) [snapback]457992[/snapback]</div>

:lol:
ROFLMAO!

I gotta remember that one. Thanks, Scotty

 

The one that I hear is, "I heard that it does very well in the city, but not that well on the highway...."

I can understand that people would think that, since the EPA mileage estimate is higher for the city. However, I don't know what type of city we're referring to. A city with a 40 mph speed limit with no red lights, traffic jams, or stop signs and every errand takes at least 15 minutes drive time between stops (so you have time to warm up the car)?

My highway mileage is always better than my city mileage, except for those few occasions where it's already warmed up good and proper from highway driving and I manage to get green lights all the way home.

 

I like this topic, for I have found that there is one popular myth that has been around for years (this was mentioned earlier): Owning a Prius does not save you much money because it is more expensive than other cars in its class (and it is almost never displayed in a class other than hybrid, right?). I get this ALL the time, and recall it being circulated back in 2004.

After recently buying my first Prius (there will be more in my future), I have done a lot of market research and found that:

1) The average price of a car in 2005 topped 30,000 - well above the Prius package six MSRP, and WAYYY above the base MSRP
2) The most popular car in the mid-size class viewed on yahoo auto is the 2008 Nissan Altima Coupe (Base price:$20,480 - 24,890K )(The Prius is listed on yahoo at a base price of $22,175 – $23,070 )
3) The average car drives 12,000 miles per year, the average tank of gas is now approximately 3 $/g, and the average mpg for a Ford Taurus (the second most popular car on yahoo with a base price tag of $23,245 - $28,695) rated by the epa is 18-28 (let's say midway at 23mpg), making the average fuel cost per year $1565 vs the Prius, which would cost $800 to fill up per year if it averaged its midway avg mpg at 45mpg (well below what many of you all get, right?).

I would say that the savings over five years would total $3825 over the Taurus in gas alone - a fairly representative car these days as far as mileage goes. (2008 mpgs on the Nissan are not available - at least not on yahoo) Given all the bells and whistles of a Prius, its lower than average cost, its demonstrable fuel savings and, to boot, the current tax breaks, why do people still think that savings are scant, if any with the Prius? Saving about 13 dollars in gas money alone a week compared to my 26 mpg jetta feels awesome, noticeable and significant.

 

The Battery Pollution Myth

From time to time I see someone bring up the idea that the traction battery will be a source of pollution after the car wears out. The below is my comment on this:


In the case of Nickel-Metal Hybride batteries (NiMH) such as have been used in the 1998-2007 Prius, the battery consists of nickel plates and an electrolite. The nickel is not particularly dangerous or hard to handle, although nickel does make some people itch. The solution to this itching is to stop touching the nickel. The battery is valuable enough, just for the metal, that people will haul it to a scrap metal place. Toyota will give you $200 (US) for a totally dead Prius battery, which would be motivation enough for me.

The electrolite is strongly alkaline. It is a mix of potassium and sodium hydroxide. Potassium Hydroxide is sometimes used as a soil conditioner. It has also been used as a wart remover, although you really shouldn't try this at home. Sodium Hydroxide is widely used in any industrial country. It has been used to make soap, prepare food, and as a hair straightener. If you should find yourself confronted with a leaky NiMH battery the simplest thing to do is pour some ordinary household vineagar on the spilled goo, which will render it harmless.

Not withstanding the above, it is best not to casually fool around with an NiMH battery. It *is* an industrial item, it can give you a severe shock and the raw electrolyte is strong enough that you could clean drains with it. In terms of pollution, recycling, and disposal it's not much different than the lead-acid starter batteries most cars have, and we handle them all the time.


References:

NiMH Battery makeup: https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/...&_nfpb=true

Propeties of nickel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel

Properties of Sodium Hydroxide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_Hydroxide

Properties of Potassium Hydroxide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_hydroxide

 

More Battery Pollution Myth:

The earlier comments don't seem to jive at all. The NimH batteries used in the Prius are much more benign than the standard Lead Acid batteries used in all vehicles as far as I know. Perhaps the confusion is things people had heard about older NiCd batteries? NiCd are very difficult to recycle, and quite toxic but this is due to the Cadmium, not the nickel. KOH is a caustic base, but is also fairly easy to neutralize with no hazardous byproducts. As I recall it also breaks down very quickly when disposed of. Isn't KOH basically Drano? Not something you want to drink, but safe enough to put down the drain? The sulfuric acid used in standard lead acid batteries is I believe much nastier stuff. There are probably a number of good reasons we don't unclog our pipes with sulfuric acid For that matter gasoline is probably as nasty or nastier than most of these things.

Some references:

Alkaline batteries, using the same KOH as NimH are safe to put in trash:
http://ehso.com/ehshome/batteries.php

Study on the relative toxicity of lead and nickel in ducks. 100% lead injected ducks died, 0% for nickel.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-541X...%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U

MSDS (material safety datasheet) for nickel, hazardous in powdered form, stable in solid form:
http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/NI/nickel.html

MSDS for lead, stable but toxic/poison
http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/LE/lead.html

MSDS for lithium, stable but reacts violently with water, corrosive
http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/LI/lithium.html

MSDS for Cadmium, stable but toxic
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CA/cadmium

MSDS for Sulfuric Acid, highly corrosive, extremely toxic
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SU/sulfuric...ncentrated.html

MSDS for Potassium Hydroxide (KOH), corrosive, harmful
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PO/potassium_hydroxide.html

MSDS for Lithium Perchlorate, common in Li-ion, irritant, rapid oxidizer
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/LI/lithium_p..._anhydrous.html

MSDS for Gasoline, yikes
http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/UNLEAD.pdf

I think the bottom line is, these are all fairly nasty materials. Lead Acid more so, Lithium maybe less so. All can be dealt with safely if handled and disposed of properly. Fortunately most of us won't be pulling out our batteries and eating them any time soon. Conversely, by its nature we are regularly exposed to the vapor, fumes, and environmental contamination of gasoline. I would argue reducing time spent at gas stations, and consequently exposure to gasoline and opportunity for environmental contamination far outweighs the health/environmental impact of what kind of batteries you are using. Similarly the greater relative ease and frequency of replacing standard lead acid batteries in regular cars creates a much greater opportunity for exposure, or contamination due to mishandling or improper disposal.

Rob

 

Well it seems like this thread died down, as the Prius's popularity has soared. Here's what I tell the naysayers.

I traded in a 10 year old car on a brand new loaded Prius, and my total auto expenses are at least 100.00 dollars per month less. My Prius has more 'toys' than the old car, the only feature it lacks vs. the old car is power seats. I don't miss the Lexus at all!!

The magic factor here is that I drive 50k a year!