Prius Mocked for a different reason.

Thanks to most of the advertising campaigns from Automakers. It's already a wrong perception to the public by associating "Greener = +MPG" as the basis.

What's 'GREEN' really mean? Low/No pollution is the only thing I can think of, +MPG is just the by-product from but not because of it. The rating of MPG is mainly depending on the 'Gallon' of Fuel (Hydrocarbon product) the car consumed to run specific mileages. However; it's the Fuel Type (Gas vs Diesel) that actually matters because of whatever polluted LESS is always Greener, assuming sufficient Emission Control is already in place.

An hypothesis is if there's a car with technology which can use WATER (H2O) as fuel and emits Oxygen (O2) as its exhaust, but its relative MPG is only 20 (Miles Per Gallon of Water). Is this car a Green Vehicle still?

 

MS,

My comments are definately in the spirit of a good discussion. To be more specific, you can really consider one to be a winner when it is only 1.5% better than the other. Or for that matter, 2.5% and even 5% can be considered a tie, due to the variability in measuring those numbers.

For the Particulate emissions, I still dissagree that there is a significant difference between a "very small amount of particulates" and "no measureable amount". They are pretty much eliminating those particulate emissions with the use of ultra low sulfer fuel and tailpipe filters. So, I think that is a non issue.

However, It is clear that the diesels still put out a lot more Nox and smog forming ingredients. I think that is the only real deciding factor. All in all that Mercedes CDR has some pretty low numbers.

 

Thank you very much.

 

No problem. It surprised me how hard this data is to find, so I wanted to make sure more people have access to it.

rob

 

Thanks so much for the data work and links, miscrms!

I've been adding all your "numbers" to a word doc for printing and 'discussion' points with less-educated on-lookers. that's about as nice as I can be with some I encounter...

Attached is my attempt with a SmartCar FourTwo vs. Prius compare.
Please critique (check my math!).

Saw one in our work lot today and actually talked to the driver. Said high 30s MPG combined, and drives nice, not fast, but comfortable, agile. Thought the hybrid batteries would be an issue so went Smart-Car instead. Well, at least there are other options. To be smug, though, I think the Prius is a better overall deal (emissions, cargo/people room, MPG, performance).

Anyway, thanks for all the work.

Okay, so a .xls is not supported...I'll have to figure out how to post this in another format...

 

Okay, where does one find the CO2 numbers? Do you have to calculate them yourself? (19.4 lbs. CO2/gallon of gas times MPG and 22.2 lbs. CO2/gallon of diesel times MPG)

I didn't see this stat among the epa.gov compare site:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Trio.do

 

Thanks for the info and comparisons on the Smart Car vs. Prius. I suspect that the SC will be seen as something of a novelty item in this country, we Americans are too used to having bigger vehicles. The Prius is a great, practical car whereas the SC seems less so to me. I'd love to drive one sometime just for kicks, but don't think I'd feel much safer in it than I do on my motorcycle!

What do SC's cost, by the way? Just curious. I suspect they are less expensive than a Prius, but don't know that.

 

I believe they are cheap, in the $12-$14k range depending on options. I love the idea of a small, affordable fuel efficient car. Just disappointed by the mileage numbers. Not really that much better or cheaper than a Yaris/Fit is it?

Rob

 

On that site, they combine the CO2 with other greenhouse gases and report it as Greenhouse Gases Emitted (tons per year).

 

Yeah, unfortunately the US doesn't measure/report CO2. I calculated using the '08 calc combined mileage and 8788 g/gal for gasoline and 10084 g/gal for diesel based on this page:
Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel | US EPA

You can find this info for European vehicles, although its not always apples to apples with north American models so I prefer to just calculate it unless I'm comparing two European models. Below is one site where you can find euro data:
VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Home Page
Rob

 

That's funny! small car...Rolls, ha. Hey the PM (particulate matter)emitted is dead even!!

 

Okay, thanks. I'll try that for my own compares. I thought it might come to that. And I thought my math days were behind me...

I've updated my attachment (a few posts previous) with CO2 numbers...'cause I need to use the math skills or lose them...let me know if 191 grams of CO2 per mile is the right number for a 46 MPG (2008 combined MPG) Prius at 8788 grams of CO2 per gallon of gasoline burned. Geeks are me...

 

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but can you lie down behind the tail pipe of that Clean Deisel and breath in the refressing pleasant sent similar to Prius exhaust? I keep wondering how clean is clean deisel becuase the dirty deisels of the pickup variety that stink me out at traffic lights and even in stop and go traffic are one of my pet peaves.

 

I don't understand why people who buy efficient cars mock at another owner of gas efficient car to practice their "Greener than thou" snobbery. In reality, we - the Prius drivers, the turbo diesel VW drivers, and Honda Civic Hybrid drivers - are much more alike than not. Let's go make fun of a H2 driver, but let's leave each other alone, shall we?

 

Very good point. Prius owners are well-reknown for generating excessive amounts of "smug," which is kinda sad, actually.

 

I agree. My concern is when companies appear to be making a lot of money marketing a product based on its supposed "greeness" when it turns out to be pretty dirty. The big signs out in front of my local Mercedes dealer heralding the arrival of the "world's cleanest diesels" would be a good example. GMs hybrids fall into a similar category for me.

I certainly have even more of a problem with an H2 driver. At least the TDI driver is attempting to do something positive. Unfortunately the new E320 diesel actually puts out more CO and NOx than the H2 does

Whether VW's T2B5 TDIs can do better remains to be seen, lets hope so.

Rob

 

Not sure about the OP's city but here in Central FL Deisel is $4 a gallon! Regular is $3.21 right now.

She would have to get a LOT of miles per gallon to make up for that!

 

1 San Diego gas station... Regular Unleaded $3.59
Diesel-----------$4.15

who saves money AND the environment?

 

Yup, I was thinking the same thing as I just noticed today that regular gas around here (and I think we're presently below the national average.....a year ago we were about 10 cents above it, so I'm not sure what gives with that, but guess it's a different topic) is $3.18 and diesel is $4.01. Seems to me that the manufacturers are going to have to come up with some very high-mileage vehicles to be able to sell a lot more diesels to the general public. If it's 20% per gallon more expensive, then one ought to get at least that much more than a comparable gas-powered or hybrid vehicle.

I've had a couple of diesels, back in the 80s, and both were very troublesome, unreliable vehicles. I'm sure that they are much better now, but I also recall a couple of occasions where I had a tough time finding a filling-station with a diesel pump and had to waste significant amounts of time and go a bit out or my way in order to do so, which was a PITA. I'm not being smug here, if someone can make a truly efficient, clean, reliable diesel, I think that'd be just great.

 

Wow, What a moron. I owned 1 VW in 1972 & it totally sucked! I would never own any VW product again. As to performance- My 2006 Prius has more power than any other 4 cyl. car I've owned. Green? What drug is this person on? Diesels: I used to drive large trucks with D engines- They stunk all the time, were noisy, and were obnoxious in general. I also will never buy 1 of them.

Only a fool would spout off the BS you had to listen to. I live in FL & my lifetime MPG @ 29,000 miles is a solid 54.5 MPG, & that's with the A/C set @ 68 degrees. Good luck dealing with that person. She obviously likes VW's & dislikes Prius's.