Prius Killer - Hybrid Honda Fit?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(asoka @ May 13 2006, 01:03 AM) [snapback]254591[/snapback]</div>

I think what the quote stated was that there would be a hybrid option in every segment, not necessarily for every model.
Compact hybrid - Prius
Midsized hybrid - TCH
SUV hybrid - HH
Minivan hybrid - Sienna
truck hybrid - Tundra
Luxury hybrids - several
Sport hybrid - ?? under development

IMO that doesn't preclude Toyota reacting to demand and making a Yaris or Corolla hybrid down the road.

 

Competition is a good thing. Having Honda nipping at their heels with make Toyota's offerings all that much better.

 

Hey if Honda can make a better car, that's great. It'll mean that I'll have another option in 3 years when our other car dies.

 

If the Fit comes with HSD...maybe I'd consider it. Until then, all the other hybrids are less. I'm an HSD snob and proud of it.

And I've read all I can about how the IMA is simpler, etc. yet delivers the same real-world MPG as HSD. I'm just not sold on the add-on mild hybrid system. Honda's system works, but HSD is yet another step ahead for several years running now. Call me when u can plug-in a Honda, run all EV without spinning the engine, generate electricity on the fly while also consuming it, and not have some cone/belt CVT.

I understand it's all subjective as far as looks and handling and "driving", yet the engineering and simple elegance of HSD and it's implementation is the tops, bar none right now. Plus the total Toyota hybrid 'package' has me sold.

Cheers,

Curt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cooljw @ May 12 2006, 08:07 PM) [snapback]254434[/snapback]</div>

...and get a small and ugly car with an annoying ad campaign.

i saw that thing in traffic once... no thanks, man. :blink:

 

who ever asked the original question asked it in the wrong forum,

There is no threat between the SuB-Compact FiT & the Mid-sized Prius.

The Pruis doesnt have to prove it self, Toyota has a reliability reputation of turning out fine automobiles.

Honda also makes good vehicles, however Hondas mistake was building smaller cars, they started to realize this and redesigned the sub-compact civic to more of a mid-sized car.. The hybrid FiT will wrestle with the Insight & the H-Civic for top position. The only saving grace for honda was they offered the Hybrids with a manual transmission as their CVT is weak.

Then our saftey stadards persons will do real crash tests and bring the FiT back down to reality...

They are trying to compete with the yaris & the scion xa. So No there is no comparison to the Prius it stands in a class all by its self... If you cant afford or cant wait for a prius, then buy what you can theres always next year..

 

Prius Killer? No. I think Fit Hybrid will only highlight HSD superiority over IMA.

First, Civic Hybrid could not compete with Prius. HCH is not as quick, MPG is lower, smaller car, etc... I read that Fit Hybrid is going to use Insight powertrain to get around Prius fuel economy. So, Honda is downsizing the car even more to get MPG of Prius (mid-size). Basically, HSD Prius is already getting the same MPG as IMA mini compact hybrid.

Fit Hybrid will be slower than Insight because it is heavier. I would guess the 0-60 in about 12 to 13 sec. In summary, you get what you pay for and there is no comparison for Prius because you can not get the size, performance, fuel economy and price equivalent from any other hybrids design/manufacturer.

Dennis

 

seawolf, your views are very common in the US, but watch how people 'rediscover' the joys of small cars at $6/gallon for fuel.

Well, the non-obese ones at least.
The Prius' size is very utilitarian, but go check out a Fit in person. It is quite the interior design tour-de-force.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ May 13 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]254772[/snapback]</div>

Turns out the Fit isn't going to use the Insight drivetrain, it's slated to use the Civic's.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=115344

I think it's misleading to classify the Fit as a sub-compact if the Prius gets to call itself mid-size. I think the Fit has the same property that the Prius has: looks small from the outside, but surprisingly roomy inside. You should compare the dimensions and see for yourself. The only major thing it gives up is 3 inches of rear legroom. If anything, the Fit should be classified as a compact, not sub-compact IMHO.

 

Fit only gets 38mpg highway. So this matter should be closed, notihng to see here...move along

 

My only thought is this:

If the FIT hybrid is 'equal' to the Prius, then, in the darwinian field of business, it's a failure.

The idea is to leapfrog your competitors. I would EXPECT the FIT (or whatever hybrid anyone offers next) to be better than the Prius. It's a 4 year newer design.

If they can only equal the Prius, or worse, if they can only make one 'nearly' as good as the Prius, then they lose.

Remember, it's only one year later that the Next Generation Prius comes out.

The real competion for the FIT and other hybrids coming out in 2007 or later isn't the '04 Prius design. Sorry, but that's Yesterday's Hybrid News.

They better have something that can compete with the next Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ May 13 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]254836[/snapback]</div>

Yeah Eric-go if your so sold on the FiT, maybe you should sell or trade in your prius and buy a FiT...
I'd bet the prius hits the Honda lot and would be sold in less than a week. Another happy Prius owner would be born and you could be the New FiT club member like the unofficial spokes person for wendy's ,except for the FiT Club.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cooljw @ May 12 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]254434[/snapback]</div>

I doubt that it would have worked for us, since the Hondas seem to have less room in the front than Toyotas like the Prius and Camry. We wanted to get all of the techno options on the Prius and I don't think most, if any of those are available for the Fit. I also think that the Prius HSD technology has a higher ceiling than the Honda IMA system (just ask former Honda fanboy and one of the 4 Prius marathoners, Wayne Gerdes). Last but not least, the Hybrid Fit isn't out yet and as someone else mentioned, by the time it is, it will have to compete with the 2007/08 redesigned Prius.

So long story short, no. Maybe we would have it in addition to the Prius, but we would probably go bigger.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ May 13 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]254836[/snapback]</div>

Equal but less expensive *IS* a success in business. Surprise !

However, the two cars are not easily comparable, if overall size is important to the buyer.
I personally value SULEV, FE, hatchback, safety, SMALL size, and price. The Fit *may* or hit or exceed Prius levels as a hybrid on those accounts; and if it costs $18K compared to the $23K of a Prius (with multiple airbags), it's a really good deal for people with priorities similar to mine.

The Prius still has an advantage over any Honda hybrid for me, in holding out the possiblity of PHEV conversion. Whether we actually will want to do it when the option exists, will depend on available stock production. Typically in electronics, buying new is a smarter move than upgrading. A car is not quite the same, so I am unsure if this advantage will be borne out in practice.

Tempus, no need to be a fanatic. One can love the Prius, and the Fit, too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 14 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]255226[/snapback]</div>

Short-Term gains are often considered successes. But in the end, it's the longevity potential that really makes a difference. If a design cannot support long-term objectives, is it really a success? Why invest in something that won't offer upgrade opportunities later?

Take a close look at the self-destructive nature of the now failing "more" marketing. It worked well for awhile. Each new vehicle model simply got bigger, faster, and more powerful. There was no future. The system wasn't improved in any way. All you got was just more of the same thing. Garages, parking spots, and speed limits are finite. At some point, more was no longer possible. It was a business model doomed to fail.

The "assist" hybrid design is unfortunately in that short-term category. When battery technology finally gets better, it will not be able to exploit it. That system was never intended for extensive electrical use. The motor is too small and doesn't have active cooling. So even relying exclusively on a plug for recharging wouldn't do any good.

The "full" hybrid is different. The potential for improvement later was taken into account in the original design. Success in the long-term is realistic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 14 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]255226[/snapback]</div>

I'm confused what you're arguing.

Are you saying that if the New Fit is only as good as the current Prius, it's still guaranteed to be a success if it costs less?

That may or may not be a success. It depends on whether the previous generation continues to be a viable option.

No one can know that until the New Prius is out and we see it's performance, features and price compared to it's contemporaries like the new Fit. And of course we have to see what a FIT hybrid costs two years from now.

If the Prius raises the bar as much as they say they will (Plug-in, near 100 MPG), and the pricing is as you propose, and the Fit only has the current HCH capabilities, then the FIT hybrid would basically be to the new Prius as the Corolla is to the current Prius. Of course there is still a market for the Corolla, but no one confuses it with a Prius Competitor.

Are you saying that if the new Fit is equal to the new (upcoming) prius and costs less, it's guaranteed to be a success?

Of course that's a success. That's what I said. That's self-evident.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 14 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]255226[/snapback]</div>

Nothing I said implies anything about fanaticism, or liking one over the other, or any emotional investment in the issue.

I can only suppose this is projection at work.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 14 2006, 02:41 PM) [snapback]255269[/snapback]</div>

Both of us share the same goals, so take my views in the good spirit they are given.

I lack the engineering and financial crystal balls required to divine whether HSD will turn out to be the definitive PHEV platform. For all I know, IMA will morph into a serial hybrid platform. Or a different design entirely will supplant it.

HSD only has an evolutionary path if it is competitive along the way. Or, if the tech is too expensive next year, it may bow out, and for example reappear when 35K PHEVs are marketable.

I am not sure in what context you use 'invest'. I invest in windmills. Buying one hybrid tech over another for a price premium to advance a specific tech platform is speculation I avoid. Which I suppose begs the question why I bought the Prius, and not HCH. I thought the Prius superior, and the prices were the same.

If a Honda Fit hybrid SULEV had been available two years ago when I bought the Prius, I would have bought the Fit instead hands down, and patiently waited for a good stock PHEV to come to market

There are people like you who pay more to have a technology they believe in for the future.
Other people wait until a new tech has proven itself, and is CHEAPER than the old way from day #1.
I pick promising tech to advance when it is about the same price as old stuff, even if a 5 - 10 year payback time is required. I know periodically I will be leapfrogged, but accept that to improve the quality of life for myself or my community today.

Sorry, I have to get on a podium for a moment: Tax credits for hybrids is classic shrub stupidity. Credits for GOALS REACHED make sense; let the best technology win. In an economic sense, you are subsidizing a specific tech today, based on a hope what it will bring tommorow. Ill advised IMO, partiularly given how much political manipulation such an approach is vulnerable to. Just look at Etoh and H2/Fool cells for a couple stellar examples. Subsidizing 25 mpg hybrid SUVs is more idiocy of the first order, a consequence of falling in love with a particular technology instead of focusing on what we want from it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ May 14 2006, 04:17 PM) [snapback]255330[/snapback]</div>

Old car designs are neat!

Chrysler 300 series 1955 - 2006 (long run huh)
1955-C-300 1956-300B
1957-300C 1958-300D
1959-300E 1960-300F
1961-300G 1962-300H
1963-300J 1964-300K
1965-300L
1998-2004-300M
2005 Chrysler 300

Chrysler P/T Cruiser 2001-2005 (short run)

Chrysler Prowler 2000-2002 (short run)

Dodge Challenger 1970-1974 & 2007-? (short run)

Dodge Charger 1966-1980 (long run)

Ford Thunderbird 1955-2006 (long run)

Ford mustang 1964-2006 (long run)

Merc Cugar 1967 - 2004 (long run)

Chevy HHR 2006- (designed by the same guy that designed the P/T Cruiser note the simalarities in the bodies)..

Chevy Camaro 1966-2006 (long run)
Chevy SSR 2004- ? (unknown run)

Gotta love those old cars of the fifties - seventies....


Toyota History:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/history/index.html