Prius Fighter: GM commits to Volt production

KMO · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]438189[/snapback]</div>

Maybe if you bought an EV1, they'd still be around.[/b]
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Funny. :lol: Do you know anything about the EV1 at all? :blink:

Proco · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 09:39 AM) [snapback]438201[/snapback]</div>

I know the EV1 was lease only. I immediately attempted to edit the post, but for some odd reason, my edit didn't take. The point still stands. Who here who was able to acquire an EV1 actually did?[/b]
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I'm sure eventually darelldd will will show up here and give you all kinds of EV facts, but here's a little teaser. Feel free to click on the little arrows to read the full posts, not just my selective edits.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 11 2007, 11:57 PM) [snapback]388715[/snapback]</div>

Let me briefly introduce myself. I am an EV customer of GM's of Toyota's and of Ford's. I also have close ties with past lease holders of Honda and Nissan EVs. I had front-row seats at the significant events that surrounded the entire EV situation of the late 90's and early 2000's. I'm well acquainted with the folks behind Who Killed the Electric Car, and my vehicles and I are even in the film. Howdy - I'm a volunteer EV advocate.[/b]
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 11 2007, 11:57 PM) [snapback]388715[/snapback]</div>

GM (EV1) - GM is almost single-handedly responsible for gutting the ZEV mandate. GM sued the state of CA, and the result was the end of all production EVs from the big car companies. When GM quit the EV business, everybody got a "get out of jail free" card. GM recalled every last EV1 on the road, disabled each one, and crushed the vast majority. (Aluminum frames and bodies - a HUGE loss to any EV conversion fan, etc - sob)A few went to museums and schools. Absolutely ZERO are in private hands today (at least that I'm going to tell you about!), and no retail lease holder was allowed to extend his lease. GM was fighting to destroy the mandate AS THEY PRODUCED the cars. GM was the first one into the game, and the first one that wanted out.

So... while all the car makers closed their respective EV programs when the mandate was torn down, the other car makers did NOT go out of their way to destroy the mandate. They did NOT crush all of their perfectly-functioning cars. They did NOT keep them from paying customers. And this is why GM is the poster child for "Who Killed the EV."[/b]
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Feb 13 2007, 04:58 PM) [snapback]389698[/snapback]</div>

They spent million$ of stock-holder money to take these cars back and "recycle" them. Every vehicle that went to a museum or school was completely disabled. No drivetrain. Just a rolling shell. They could have made millions by selling the cars to willing buyers (a small group of us ponied up enough money to buy every one of the cars ever made - the check was rejected of course). Instead they spent millions to destroy both the mandate and the vehicles. One reason they gave was "safety" of course. As if they can guarantee the safety of ANY of their vehicles once out of warranty.[/b]
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larkinmj · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ May 9 2007, 02:25 AM) [snapback]438107[/snapback]</div>

Sure they are . . . now that GM has finished the engineering work on just how much pressure is required to crush the Volt. :blink:
[/b]
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Coming soon to a video store near you- "Who Killed the Electric Car?- Part II" :lol:

ozyran · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 09:39 AM) [snapback]438201[/snapback]</div>

Uh huh. And what does loss of resale value have to do, in any proximate manner, to GM's ability to build and sell a quality plug-in hybrid vehicle?[/b]
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The resale value should tell you, right off the bat, the manufacturer's ability to produce a quality plug-in hybrid vehicle.

Don't believe me? Look at this list and tell me how many Toyotas are there. 5 of those cars are GM products! Most of those vehicles on the list I've dealt with, and they don't age very well at all. So, unless GM gets their act together, I have strong doubts about their ability to build a quality hybrid vehicle.

I'm sure GM can do it - if they wanted to. Personally, I don't believe that GM wants to build a quality vehicle. If they did, they'd actively pursue fixing the issues with quality that they have now.

SomervillePrius · May 9, 2007

I'm really looking forward to the Volt. To me it's more interesting the the next gen prius. A 40 mile EV car that can be charged over night covers 90+% of my driving. It coud make me not use gas for months at a time.

It still early to tell what will happen and Gm has a lot of catching up to do. But if they can get this out to compete with the next gen Prius then I think they will have a winner.

That said I think they are further of then 36 months so by the time they get out it might not be as remarkable as it could have been. It's on the short list of cars I would consider for my family's next car

larkinmj · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ May 9 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]438211[/snapback]</div>

Don't believe me? Look at this list and tell me how many Toyotas are there. 5 of those cars are GM products! Most of those vehicles on the list I've dealt with, and they don't age very well at all. So, unless GM gets their act together, I have strong doubts about their ability to build a quality hybrid vehicle.[/b]
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I notice that the Chevy Malibu is #10 on the list of cars with worst resale value. Someone should point that out to this bozo who says that the Prius is a terrible deal compared to a Malibu!

ozyran · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 9 2007, 10:16 AM) [snapback]438216[/snapback]</div>

I notice that the Chevy Malibu is #10 on the list of cars with worst resale value. Someone should point that out to this bozo who says that the Prius is a terrible deal compared to a Malibu!
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Actually, if you look through this thread, I already did :lol:

efusco · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]438180[/snapback]</div>

Many of you are just so smug.

It's a real turn-off to those who consider purchasing a Prius. Do all owners turn into sarcastic, glib, sanctimonious US-Auto-Industry-bashers?

Toyota builds many fuel-inefficient vehicles and unpopular models. They're far from "Can Do No Wrong." But that doesn't mean I'm going to take every positive thing they do and completely--not only disregard--but DERIDE it.

This is GREAT news from GM. I can't wait to buy a Volt.

Besides, it's not like it's going to be their first hybrid. Their full hybrid mid and full-size SUVs will be out this year and they already have their parallel hybrids on the road in the form of the VUE and Aura. [/b]
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You have to realize that many of us are just tired of the empty and unfulfilled promises that GM's made. We're still annoyed by their smug attitude about the Prius and hybrid technology when it came out. We're still not sure that the Volt will do what they say it will do if and when it comes out. A careful search of similar threads to this will show you a pretty extensive list of their unfulfilled promises...you know, like a commercially available FCV by 2010.

You'll also find a lot of us here would be the first to go out and buy a Volt if/when it comes into production IF...it does what they say it will do. IF...it's affordable. IF....they beat Toyota to market with a PHEV or if Toyota's PHEV doesn't have adequate electric only range and the Volt is imminent for release, IF...you can actually buy the car outright and not worry about a lease and having the vehicle taken away and crushed when they decide to abandon technology like it again.

The bottom line is we're just sick of the talk and we want to see product. We want to see a real full hybrid from them that actually has low emissions like the Prius, not just a modestly better FE. We want to see them make a move toward the future and away from the gas guzzling world they're wont to promote.

Marlin · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 9 2007, 11:39 AM) [snapback]438262[/snapback]</div>

A careful search of similar threads to this will show you a pretty extensive list of their unfulfilled promises...you know, like a commercially available FCV by 2010.
[/b]
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Well, that's not exactly a broken promise yet, is it? It's only 2007. The Volt is their planned platform for both their gas hybrid and fuel cell. They showcased a fuel cell version of the Volt in a Shanghai car show. They have stated that they will build 100 fuel cell Volts late this year or 2008 for testing by the public.

Latest Version of Chevrolet Volt Gets a Hydrogen Fuel Cell
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Edmunds")</div>

The Detroit automaker has not set a date for selling production versions of the Volt, but it said it plans to build 100 of its fuel-cell cars late this year or in 2008 and distribute them in the U.S., Europe and Asia for testing by the public.[/b]
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efusco · May 9, 2007

I should add, Chrome, that part of the reason many are suspicious of GM is that some of their statements are fairly inconsistant with facts. They state the battery technology doesn't exist yet, but there are people with 100+ mile EVs that are on their original batteries that are 11 years old. And battery technology has improved since then.

Now, I do believe that they intend to use better, smaller batteries and that the wait is justified for that, the way GM is stating it is creating confusion and decreasing confidence.

Marlin · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 9 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]438313[/snapback]</div>

I should add, Chrome, that part of the reason many are suspicious of GM is that some of their statements are fairly inconsistant with facts. They state the battery technology doesn't exist yet, but there are people with 100+ mile EVs that are on their original batteries that are 11 years old. And battery technology has improved since then.[/b]
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Toyota says the same thing:

January 8th, 2007: Toyota doesn't see plug-in hybrids coming to market soon

Toyota doesn't see plug-in hybrids coming to market soon

Toyota Motor Co., the global leader in the production of hybrid vehicles, is studying a plug-in version which owners could recharge at home but doesn't see it coming to market anytime soon. "There's one very important technological obstacle which is in the battery area," Masatami Takimoto, executive vice president at Toyota Motor Corp. for research, product development and advanced technology, told reporters at the North American International Auto Show. "We have to develop batteries far superior to lithium-ion ones-- stronger, lighter, smaller and longer-lasting. Currently, all over the world, efforts to improve batteries are in the early stages. For commercialization, it may take quite some time." [/b]
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Pinto Girl · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ May 8 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]437416[/snapback]</div>

Excellent! Finally something serious and an earnest commitment to the technology.
I certainly hope that it really does compete in the marketplace.
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Agreed!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ May 8 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]437416[/snapback]</div>

"GM has not confirmed a production date for the Volt. The company generally needs about 36 months to bring a vehicle to production once the design is frozen, but it's not clear how soon that point could be reached.

[/b]
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I think the 36-month figure, in the case of the Volt, is *tremendously* optimistic. For a conventional automobile, especially one based upon an existing platform, It'd be doable, sure...but for something like this, I just don't them being able to get anywhere close. Also, the key phrase is "...but it's unclear how soon that point could be reached." So what they're saying is we're Xnumber of months/years out from freezing the design...at which point we can add --easily, in my opinion-- another 36 months.

I think it's also a bit disappointing that it's thought of, internally, as a relatively low volume vehicle.

I hope, though, that I'm wrong about all of this...and, while I'm at it, I hope they provide a separate service entrance (a la Mini) for Volt customers, so they don't have to queue up with Suburbans and Hummers.

I'd actually consider this car...if it proved durable in the hands of early adaptors and I had some confidence that the folks in parts wouldn't try to sell me a lift kit and running boards.

------

Actually, I wish that FORD was trying to do something like this!! I grew up in a "Ford family" and am still waiting for Boeing's ex CEO to lead the turn-around of the product side of their domestic business.

burritos · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 08:39 AM) [snapback]438201[/snapback]</div>

Uh huh. And what does loss of resale value have to do, in any proximate manner, to GM's ability to build and sell a quality plug-in hybrid vehicle?

I know the EV1 was lease only. I immediately attempted to edit the post, but for some odd reason, my edit didn't take. The point still stands. Who here who was able to acquire an EV1 actually did?
As for the VUE: the all new '08 Vue will continue to offer a hybrid powertrain. I am informed that it will soon have the dual-mode full hybrid system, to boot.
[/b]
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The EV1 came out too early and they never marketed it. How come I didn't hear about EV1 until the movie came out? If they simply re introduced the EV1 and marketed it like they WANTED to sell it, many would buy it considering the trend in gas prices. Why don't they do this?

Instead they are coming out with another pie-in-the-sky feel good "fuel cell clean" car. In the mean time you have this good will notion towards them(because of the impending volt production) thun you give them the benefit of the doub(yet again) and buy their (collusive with the oil companies) gas guzzing mega suv contraptions.

The public is not waiting. The hybrid is here now, it works, it's easy on the gas pump. FU GM.

Ron Dupuy · May 9, 2007

Has anybody thought about how many Prius or GM cars would sell next year if a PHEV Prius or Volt were to be announced for sale in 2009. Probably a drastic reduction as so many would put off replacing a vehicle. Maybe there is a conspiracy to not list a sale date for a PHEV that is nearing production! Let's hope so.

Tideland Prius · May 9, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 06:21 AM) [snapback]438189[/snapback]</div>

Maybe if you bought an EV1, they'd still be around. Where was Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suzuki's wide-spread electric vehicle program?
[/b]
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Toyota RAV4 EV
Honda EV Plus
Mitsubishi i EV
Nissan Altra EV

and Ford Ranger EV.

Not as advanced as the EV1?? The EV1 started out with cheap Lead-Acid batteries. The rest had Ni-MH. The "i" has Li-Ion.

avdavsim · May 10, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 08:39 AM) [snapback]438201[/snapback]</div>

I know the EV1 was lease only. I immediately attempted to edit the post, but for some odd reason, my edit didn't take. The point still stands. Who here who was able to acquire an EV1 actually did?
[/b]
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According to my recollection of "Who Killed the Electric Car?", there was a waiting list to get an EV1 during the entire time it was produced. Also, after the leases ended, GM insisted on repossessing every EV1 regardless of how much money the lessee offered to buy it.

Although the movie focused on GM's egregiously bad behavior, it didn't let Ford or Toyota off the hook.

For now, I am happy to consider the Volt with an open mind, but I am also aware of GM's history, so I am going to try to not be gullible, either.

cireecnop1 · May 10, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ May 8 2007, 09:31 PM) [snapback]438044[/snapback]</div>

36 months to production. That means if it's ready now, it won't be in the showroom until early 2010. Great, the new Prius will be out by then.
[/b]
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yeah and the 4th generation Prius will probably already be designed and lined up to hit showroom floors.

Dont hold your breath for the 'VOLT' (cheasy name)....Once a Prius driver always a Prius driver.

SomervillePrius · May 11, 2007

Still a 40 mile EV range and a plug is far more attractive then rumored 9 miles EV range and just a slight improvement in fuel efficiency.

If GM can make the volt soon it will force the hand of other manufacturers. I for one hope they build it

JimN · May 11, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ May 9 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]438180[/snapback]</div>

Many of you are just so smug.

It's a real turn-off to those who consider purchasing a Prius. Do all owners turn into sarcastic, glib, sanctimonious US-Auto-Industry-bashers?

Toyota builds many fuel-inefficient vehicles and unpopular models. They're far from "Can Do No Wrong." But that doesn't mean I'm going to take every positive thing they do and completely--not only disregard--but DERIDE it.
This is GREAT news from GM. I can't wait to buy a Volt.

Besides, it's not like it's going to be their first hybrid. Their full hybrid mid and full-size SUVs will be out this year and they already have their parallel hybrids on the road in the form of the VUE and Aura.
[/b]
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IMO GM can't (or won't) build a quality conventional car so how are they going to build a quality hybrid or electric car? My 2000 Intrigue is the 3rd Olds I bought and has had more warranty trips than the other 2 put together. When I complained that the engine burns a quart of oil every 3000 miles, Mr. Goodwrench told me that I'm lucky. The engine is within spec if it burns a quart every 1000 miles. I did not "turn into a sarcastic, glib, sanctimonious US-Auto-Industry-basher because I bought a Prius. I bought a Prius because the Big 3 didn't build anything to match it. If I am mistaken please show me the GM car that will actually get 50mpg and has a 150,000 mile 10 year powertrain warranty and costs $25500 comparably equipped. In short, GM's products and customer service suck. Corporations don't DESERVE loyalty, they have to EARN it. So far, although my Prius has not been perfect (and I have never hidden that fact) if I had to replace it today I would get another without hesitation.

You can drive a Prius off the lot tomorrow. You will be waiting a LONG time to drive a Volt off the lot.

Stev0 · May 11, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimN @ May 11 2007, 09:30 PM) [snapback]440341[/snapback]</div>

Corporations don't DESERVE loyalty, they have to EARN it. So far, although my Prius has not been perfect (and I have never hidden that fact) if I had to replace it today I would get another without hesitation.
[/b]
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Not just that - GM have gone out of their way to earn disloyalty.

Prius Fighter: GM commits to Volt production

KMO Senior Member

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Prius Fighter: GM commits to Volt production

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