Prius as a functioning family vehicle

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 24 2007, 08:57 PM) [snapback]380442[/snapback]</div>

Well that's the problem, all my neighbors drive F350s on their commute, which even dwarf my SUV. They're not selling their trucks for Geos. Ever.

No single vehicle crashes here as those are for people who drive like lunatics.

I can't control how other people drive, all I can do is make sure I'm not a menace. I have not sacrificed anyone's safety for driving a larger car because I have a 30 year history of safe driving. On the other hand, I've been hit three times in my life, all three not my fault, all three from larger vehicles (one a suburban), leaving me with a broken back and chronic pain. Had I been driving a larger vehicle, I would have had no injuries in any of those accidents. Is that fair to me?

Mind you, I did NOT make a value judgement against the Prius beyond stating the obvious - it's a lower, lighter car with very little body mass in front of the passenger cage. It's great in crash tests with vehicles of like size and mass, but let's not kid ourselves about the reality of the road. It is not all small cars out there yet and it's a logical fallacy to go off on "well if everyone did blah blah" because not everyone does. After all the SUVs are changed to small cars, I'm ready for the trip in the Prius. Until then, I'm dealing with reality.

And about gas consumption, I did care enough to buy a Prius didn't I? Obviously I care enough to put myself in a position of my own perceived risk, but I will never do that to my family, and that's sort of the job of the parent.

Do you have CF bulbs throughout your whole house and office?
Do you vent your dryer into your house?
Do you collect and reuse gray water?
Do you use passive solar?
Do you have a non-frost-free freezer?
Do you buy only clothing guaranteed not made in an asian sweat shop?

There are all sorts of eco-crimes we can all be convicted of. At least we're trying. On top of that, I'm not lying.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Jan 25 2007, 09:45 AM) [snapback]380607[/snapback]</div>

First off, you ignored the part where I own a Prius, so get off your box.

Have you ever heard of anyone planning on a crash?

I have one dead sibling as a result of a crash, and have been injured personally in three crashes, not my fault, with larger vehicles which have left me with permanent chronic pain. I have a valid argument for desiring protection and if you're sick of it, carry on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Jan 26 2007, 05:51 AM) [snapback]381026[/snapback]</div>

Because you haven't been broadsided yet.

Your sarcasm doesn't help the debate at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 26 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]381509[/snapback]</div>

I am sorry for your vehicular suffering. It unfortunately happens too often regardless of what vehicles we own and drive.

You do raise an important point: Your argument highlights the disparity between the social good versus the individual good. In that sense, we need to legislate the reduction in vehicle size and weight - rather than wait for people to do the "right" thing.

To that extent, I would expect all of us to support legistlation that increases CAFE mileage which do not exclude heavy trucks and SUVs. Finally, a heavy surtax on larger, fuel inefficient vehicles is warranted.

In this approach... we will coax / move our society to smaller cars, while allowing car companies to apply the best technologies that are fit for purpose. This approach will also provide you the personal choice of buying a large, high fuel consumption vehicle - you just have to pay for that option. In essence, a heavy vehicle hurts society by damaging the environment, exaserbating our national security and increasing the safety risks for all other drivers. Consequently, you should pay to mitigate these negative effects on society.

Wow - in summary, is a Prius a good family car? Absolutely! It is reliable, efficient and gives you a lot of room for its size....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 26 2007, 11:20 PM) [snapback]381509[/snapback]</div>

Given your unusual history, no reasonable person could argue with your decision to choose what you perceive to be the safest possible vehicle. If everything else on the road were an F350, yeah, I think I'd go for a larger vehicle myself, all things considered. But if the OP is facing a more typical mix of cars, then the US averages apply. Unless the OP has information to allow the decision to be fine-tuned further, it would be reasonable to make the safety assessment based on US average safety statistics.

First, over the past 5 years, roughly 2/3rds of vehicle deaths in Denver County, CO were from single-vehicle crashes. That's slightly higher than the national average. This may not match any particular driver's experience, but one has to bear in mind that this is not just drunks running off the road, this combines all sorts of reasons for hitting a fixed object (e.g., ice on road, swerving to avoid another car, etc.)

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/departments/n...County_2004.HTM

Second, this scholarly study calculates that the actual, observed rate of driver deaths per 100,000 vehicles for light trucks (SUV,pickup,van) is essentially no different from midsize and large cars, though it is lower than for small cars. Minivans have the best observed safety record during the period studied. It also gives a nice, quantified, conservative estimate of the excess risk to others, from driving a light truck, based on the actual mix of cars that are struck by light trucks. (And not, as you will typically see, based on an SUV in effect striking a Geo.) Also, a good discussion of the underlying statistics.

http://www.aceee.org/pubs/t021full.pdf

It's also worth noting, for the benefit of the OP, that when comparing all light trucks (SUV, pickup, van) to all cars (large, midsize, small), SUV drivers die at only a modestly lower rate. Of all passenger vehicle driver deaths in 2005, 42% were to drivers of light trucks (SUV, van, pickup), the other 58% were car drivers. That's disproporionate to the share of vehicle miles, but only due to the presence of excess deaths from the average small car, not due to higher death rates in midsize and large cars.

So, if you know that your own situation is atypical, you can fine-tune the decision. And, you can certainly choose a *particular* SUV with a better safety record than the Prius, once you've done your homwork. But if your driving situation is similar to the US average, and you just pick *an* SUV, the chances are that you are no safer than you would be in a Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John in LB @ Jan 27 2007, 01:56 AM) [snapback]381600[/snapback]</div>

Sounds like good reasoning to me. I'd support that whole heartedly.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 27 2007, 07:41 AM) [snapback]381624[/snapback]</div>

I spent the better part of six months researching the right SUV. Even paid attention to having a reasonable bumper height so that if someone hits me, my bumper doesn't hit them in the face. And on the Prius, I avoided the HID headlights so I don't blind oncoming drivers.

Regardless of how my decisions get painted, I put a lot of effort into balancing social responsibility with my family's health.

Also note, sometimes people actually do use SUVs AS a utility vehicle - I do on a regular basis. A Prius simply cannot tow anything. I drive on unimproved roads to collect firewood. I have an extended family that periodically does fill every seat in the vehicle. I use all the space available many times a year.

I understand the latent (and overt) hostility towards SUV owners, because realistically, not everyone needs to buy a large 4wd vehicle. On the other hand, I don't see the same animosity towards people that buy monster trucks as commuters. 99% of trucks I see on the road have nothing in the bed which indicates to me that they could have purchased a smaller vehicle and a separate trailer. Now minivans. Many or most of these get mileage in the teens, yet the vast majority of them that I see have only one person in them. I don't see any hostility directed towards those folks.

If people truly care about wasting fuel and reducing the size of vehicles, they should apply their arguments consistently and reasonably, or they lose credibility.

 

great thread guys. i thought i'd chime in about the good old days w/my family. we travelled from oregon to ft. worth, tx. we were driving an early 80's corolla and hauling a uhaul trailer. there were 3 of us in the back w/mom and dad in the front. how we made to TX, i don't know but it was great fun.

anyways, it just seems our mentality about what we need or want has changed so much since i a wee lad, along w/what we think we need to be safe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(saechaka @ Jan 27 2007, 10:47 AM) [snapback]381694[/snapback]</div>

The road environment has changed. Buying the next largest vehicle has become, as a colleague put it, an 'arms race'. No doubt that is true. On the other hand, Suburbans, IHs and pickups have always been a threat to smaller cars and I don't recall a political movement over them when I was young.

 

This post really got me to thinking...I really don't enjoy driving our SUV anymore. I've always joked about getting his and hers Prii. We love everything about the Prii, which is currently the spouse's commuter. Sad thing is, even fully loaded the Prius costs exactly half of what our 7-seater euro-ute cost new. Cost and enjoyment are not directly proportional! So anyway, I tried an experiment this weekend and transferred both car seats to the Prius. I put away all of my misperceptions about needing an SUV or minvan for family duty and went in with an open mind. I threw my iPod (loaded with the kids' music) in the center console and off we went. We went to the park, the playground, the supermarket, the usual weekend activities. BTW, the kids are 3 and almost 2 and both are in front-facing Britax seats. Here are my impressions so far:

1. This could actually work!
2. Car seats are a breeze to install compared to the SUV
3. Putting the kids in the car is so much easier, less lifting
4. We don't miss the rear-seat video at all (so far)
5. The kids have a much easier time seeing out the window and are pointing out all the cars and trucks
6. The Mclaren double stroller fits perfectly with room to spare; double jogger does not fit at all
7. There is absolutely no way that anybody (except a child) could fit between the two forward facing car seats. This is a problem as we have the need to occasionally to transport a third adult.
8. We would definitely need a roof-top carrier for weekend trips.
9. The smart key system makes loading/unloading kids SO much easier. It's almost a must.
10. There is so much more legroom that my 3 year old can walk over to his side while I strap in other, thus making it safer than having him stand in the parking lot next to the car while I strap the other

I'm going to keep this experiment going through next week while my spouse is on business travel and see how it goes. I'll keep you posted.

CE

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Display Name @ Jan 26 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]381509[/snapback]</div>

Yes. And for the record I go far beyond this. Using less energy with LEDs. Using both passive and active solar. Drying my clothes in the air, driving a solar-powered car, bicycling more than driving, etc. And surprisingly, I'm not lying either.

I am saddened for the injuries of loved ones that you report. I am compelled to point out that they're all apparently inflicted FROM larger vehicles, however. Which means that if, for some reason (ice, oil, broken brakes) you lose control of your larger car, the potential to injure somebody else is likely higher. Your claim that you would have been just fine had you been in a larger car during the crash that injured you is one I hear often. But how can anybody possibly know this?

I won't preach any more. You have your reasons for wanting a larger car for safety. Thanks for the efforts you are taking in other areas.

 

the back seat leg room has been noticed and appreciated by everyone who has ridden back there. as far as storage, in my 04, i took 3 teenaged girls with luggage, band instruments, etc. drove from Portland, Or to Bellevue, WA for a 3 day band camp (about 175 miles) and there was room for all.

granted teenage girls are smaller than normal. but for a "2 kids in back plus luggage" example, it was a bit to pack it. and had to do a few restarts, but we got it all. (girls carry too much junk. all had 1-2 small suitcases, duffle, backpack and purses along with instruments and music)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CEguru @ Jan 28 2007, 11:12 AM) [snapback]381934[/snapback]</div>

We almost did exactly that, after I calculated that the most fuel-efficient vehicle available that could transport 7 adults was -- two Prii. No joke, based on the EPA milages. Half the Prius EPA overall beat anything available at that time that would hold eight, seven, or even six (by a slim margin). I guarantee you that around town, two Prii will get better overall gas milage than your SUV. Just for laughs, you might try to figure out whether two Prii get better overall mileage than your SUV, combined city/hwy.

But the drag of having two drivers, two parking spots, not traveling as a family, etc., brought us back down to earth. We got a "micro van" Mazda5 instead of a second Prius. Mostly it sits, as both my wife and I prefer to drive the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John in LB @ Jan 26 2007, 06:44 AM) [snapback]381017[/snapback]</div>

I've been driving for nearly two decades now with a total of ZERO accidents. If I am involved in an accident it will be because of the other driver. I want to protect my family at all costs. If someone causes an accident and that person or someone in that car dies because my car is much bigger/heavier than theirs I will have no problem living with myself for the rest of my life. It has been thought of before, and there have been posts on it before. You are not breaking new ground here.

Right now in addition to the Prius we have, and always will have a large SUV. They are more comfortable, and in the real world, more safe. The crash tests are a vehicle vs. a static barrier. This is good for seeing how your car will do if it happens to run into a static barrier. I'm more interested in what happens when some teenager in a Mustang or riced out Honda decides racing his friend would be a good idea and hits us. In this situation I most certainly do want the biggest, heaviest vehicle, because physics says that I and my family win.

The most dangerous thing on the road is careless drivers, regardless of what they are driving.