Prius a no, no – Peugeot, Citroen and Ford are all greener, says new study

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Sep 27 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]518720[/snapback]</div>

Yes, it appears that they've made some definite assumptions. The worst, of course, lies in assuming that Americans will want to go to cars smaller or as small as the Prius which they're not going to do and the American variable has to be a big factor in the equation since we produce more pollution than anyone else. Diesel may make sense, of course, if they can get it to stop emitting particulate matter reliably but it won't replace something like a Prius if for no other reason than gasoline is so much more plentiful than diesel. The Prius and hybrids in general will be around for a long time.

 

Didn't Argonne National Laboratory do a peer-reviewed study that shows the energy expenditure to manufacture and dispose of a car accounts for ~20% of the total energy used during its lifetime, ~80% being energy used to operate the car (and both varies from car to car)?

If that's the case, the Cardiff/Clifford Thames report would be guilty of skewing their ratings, because they arbitrarily fix their "ERV" ratings weighing at 50% operation of the vehicle and 50% manufacture/disposal.

Even more tellingly, the Cardiff/Clifford Thames report is nowhere to be found for perusal, kind of like the undisclosed (i.e. non-verifiable, non-peer-reviewable) "data sources" spun by CNW Marketing.

I smell a rat.

 

The study is a load of crap.

The only accurate point it makes is smaller cars are greener then bigger cars. ALERT THE MEDIA!

It is skewed towards dirty diesels and tiny cars. Sure, if you can use a smaller car that is great but even some of the tiny cars mentioned get worse mpg then the Prius.

The assumption that conventional cars will surpass the Prius in 18 months is insane. There is no technology for conventional engines out there that could do that. Forget that the next Prius will be better and that there may be a smaller Prius in the future. Conventional cars wont get any better then 15% in 18 months and we would be lucky to see that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Sep 27 2007, 05:42 PM) [snapback]518717[/snapback]</div>

People. THIS IS A EUROPEAN STUDY! THESE ARE EUROPEAN CARS. In Europe diesel is the standard, with about 60% of new vehicles sold having diesel engines. In some markets this is as high as 80%.

PARTICULATES ARE NO LONGER AN ISSUE! Particulate filters have taken care particulate emissions. Take a look at the testing from the UK.

Mini Cooper Diesel: Particulates: 0.001 Combined 72.4 mpg (Imp)
BMW 118d 5 door: Particulates - 0.000 Combined 62.8 mpg (Imp)
BMW 318d Wagon: Particulates - 0.001 Combined 48.7 mpg (Imp)


MINI:
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=19797
BMW 118d:
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=19957
BMW 318d:
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=16753
Toyota Prius:
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=10982

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 27 2007, 06:33 PM) [snapback]518779[/snapback]</div>

Yep they are cleaning up diesels. Unfortunately none of the ones you listed meet Tier Bin5 specs for NOx, thus very unlikely to come over here.

VW and MB and some others are to introduce new models that will be able to meet the NOx requirement with additional emissions equipment, not just particle filters.

EU specs fro NOx are drastically getting more agressive as well. More so than CO2 specs.

 

A SULEV (Tier 2 Bin 2) high performance diesel engine is no problem....

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/08/ricardo-announc.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Sep 28 2007, 01:35 AM) [snapback]518898[/snapback]</div>

Yep they have the technology now to make diesels that will meet the spec. It adds more emissions equipment to the list, but I believe it will finally come to the US.

WIll have to see how all the extra emissions goodies affect price and maintenance cost. I belive all the new diesels that will meet Tier2 Bin5 will have an ammonia solution tank that will inject it into the emissions traps at times to clean it out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Sep 29 2007, 03:14 PM) [snapback]519154[/snapback]</div>

The 2008 VW Jetta TDI, Honda's Accord diesel, and BMW's 3 Series diesel will not use urea injection. These will use a catalytic converter to remove NOx just like a gasoline vehicle uses. The removal of sulfur from diesel fuel allows the use of catalytic converters on diesel vehicles. This was not possible before because sulfur poisons and contaminates the catalyst. This is not different than how removing lead from gasoline allowed the use of catalytic converters in gasoline vehicles in the 70's.

Large cars and SUV's will use Urea injection because it is not practical to put a large enough catalytic converter to clean the greater volume of exhaust gases from the larger engines.

The reason the European diesels listed do not meet T2B5 NOx emission requirement is because the Euro IV emission requirement are more relaxed for NOx than T2B5. Automakers will not but the more expensive emission equipment on vehicles until it is required by Euro V.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bulldog @ Sep 27 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]518603[/snapback]</div>

Hi Bulldog,

My first thought was also that the CNW campaign must be doing well, and that a Euro version was being started. However the original article does not say what the eco-graffiti people report. For more information on the ERV study, you can contact [email protected], the coathors of the study. Let us know what they say if you do.

Er, have you tried contacting them?

CNW states plainly on their website (or at least they used to, haven't been there for a while) that they will not reveal their data because other people might draw other conclusions from it. I imagine they can generate any data and conclusions you would like if the price is right. Their report is part of a publicity campaign, a sucessful one, not a scientific study. They just doll it up a little to sort of look like science. Then the wicked flying monkeys of the internets eat it up and s**t it out all over the internets.

 

This study is great news! The very advanced-for-it's-time Prius MAY be out-environmentaled soon. The leader in green technology has caused such a stir that other complacent manufacturers are stepping up their commitment to the environmental cause. This is EXACTLY why I bought a Prius in the first place. To encourage and support cutting edge technology. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!! Now, does anyone think the leader in new technology will stand still while the competitors play catch-up? No, Toyota will also be moving forward with still newer and better technology. Would it be a disaster to me if a car company leap frogged ahead of Toyota in even newer modes of propelling us around? NO! I'd support them with my next purchase.