Prime vs. Hyundai Ioniq

there is your answer

in the US auto boxes are pretty standard, many garages / repair shops know them inside out, have all the relevant tools to strip and repair them

eCVT due to its low part count compared to a auto box should be relatively reliable, but software fixes require access to Toyota's systems so likely only available from dealers

here in the UK auto boxes are rare (although DCT becoming more common) most are manual / stick shift and only a few specialist garages / repair shops can help with the eCVT

biggest costs will be the time to remove and strip the auto box

 

Uncle Bob, does Toyota offer this Launch gear in any of the current transmissions? My Prime certainly feels very "Zippy" off the line!


Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
AChoiredTaste.com

 

My understanding is some of the CVT Corollas have them but not in the USA, yet.

Bob Wilson

 

Source: 2018 Hyundai Ioniq Plug-In Hybrid Test | Review | Car and Driver

. . . you will want to compare their available features side by side; the Toyota, for example, comes standard with most of the active-safety gear that can be had only on the top-level Hyundai. ​

Works for me as TSS-P or the equal has become a mandatory requirement in our family,

. . . However, given that the non-plug-in Ioniq hybrid averaged a solid 45 mpg over the course of its testing in our care, opting for the plug-in should be done only after analyzing how much city driving you do and also your local charging infrastructure—and a realistic assessment of how often you’ll use it.​

Dang shame Fuelly shows the Ioniq Blue is running ~52 MPG and the Prius ECO ~58 MPG, ~15% better. Our 10k miles in the Prime are showing ~199 MPG.

Bob Wilson

 

It is 50.5mpg for the Ioniq Blue to the Prius Eco's 55.3mpg at Fuelly.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree: Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor? | Page 109 | PriusChat

There are more than one way to remove outliers:

	Ioniq Blue	Prius ECO	conditions
1	52.0	50.0	All data including the 0 MPG buckets
2	55.6	57.7	All data excluding the 0 MPG buckets
3	51.5	57.8	" " exclude 3 from each end and 0 MPG buckets
4	50.9	58.5	" " exclude outside of multiple entry buckets and 0 MPG buckets
5	51.6	58.1	" " exclude single entry buckets and 0 MPG buckets
6
7	50.5	55.3	Fuelly reported averages
8	58	56	EPA combined

So we have choices of how to deal with the outliers:

• All data keeps the Ioniq Blue and Prius ECO ratios matching the EPA numbers.
• Removing the 0 MPG buckets reverses ratios and swaps EPA numbers.
• Trimming from each end by count, typically the integer of n%, is what Jason at the original GreenHybrid.com used, 10% off of both ends. It works for the Ioniq Blue and close for the Prius ECO.
• Mult-ientry bucket boundaries works too but single entries within can still bias the result.
• Using just the multi-entry buckets means just those that two or more cars achieved has more credibility than single entries.
• 
  
• The Fuelly averages are OK but seem to have an offset low bias.
• The EPA metrics came from data supplied the manufacturer, not EPA conducted tests.
  • Sad to say Hyundai had an unfortunate misunderstanding many years ago.
  • There is some question about whether the EPA/DOE is still testing subsets of cars.
  • My impression after 13 years is that Toyota 'sandbags' their EPA data.
  • Dieselgate revealed sometimes manufactures have special operational modes enabled by noticing it is on a dyno.

Bob Wilson

 

Or perhaps just use the common interquartile range method of identifying outliers of a data set.
Interquartile range - Wikipedia

Outliers are observations a distance from the rest of the data set. Discarding one car buckets like you have, results in you discarding data that aren't outliers, like the Prius Two Ecos that average 53 and 55mpg.

 

All this talk of 'MPG wars' is interesting but even if the Ioniq does end up being slightly better...I still won't buy one (yet).

I'm still not at all convinced that the Ioniq will come close in the 'reliability wars'.

 

And then there's the general 'PHEV Wars'. There are Distinctions.

With some Limited PHEV's, if you:
>Press the Go pedal too much - Cold Gasser comes on.
>Press the Defrost Button - Cold Gasser comes on.
>10k Oil Changes required REGARDLESS of EV-Gas% of driving.
>??

Some PHEV's are Fully Functional EV's when in EV mode?
That smelly gasser never comes on until the battery is depleted down to the hybrid buffer level.

 

If you are a car manufacturer advertising your car and you only have people's attention span for a few seconds, being able to say "Beats the Prius" or "Equals the Prius" will get people's attention. Even if the numbers turn out to be slightly fudged most car buyers won't sweat a few MPG's.

The Ioniq arguably looks better than Prius (obviously subjective), maybe not great looking, but let's just say less controversial. Same with the interior. That's important to some, not to others. The Ioniq has features not found on the Prime like an available sunroof, Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Important to some, not to others.

Ioniq has better cargo space than Prime, and five seats (at least technically) either of which will be important to some, not to others.

Prime of course has positives over Ioniq, I won't list them since they have already been discussed, but of course the biggest being reliability. That one of course is important to everyone, but not the be-all end-all determiner for everyone as they weigh other factors including price and availability. If Ioniq is more readily available in states where Primes are scarce, that's an advantage.

And yes Prime will run virtually pure EV, which is important to some, not to others.

Bottom line is that there are people out there who for whatever reason won't buy a Prime but will by an Ioniq. For that reason alone I wish Hyundai the best as it will increase the number of plug-ins on the road

 

Hey Bill,

Prius Prime but it is 43F outside so I'll take the other one. Yes, I know how to avoid the engine coming on in these conditions but sometimes it is easier to just use the other car.

Just told the BMW i3-REx to precondition the car. In 15-20 minutes, the dogs and I will run our errands.

Bob Wilson

 

and the other way round, won't buy an Ioniq but will buy a prius

if innovation and safety levels of both increase due to a bit of competition and the number of hybrids and plugins increases it can only be a good result all round for the environment and customers

forums like this highlight differences which people may not consider when reading a brochure or listening to the sales person only pointing out the positives they think the customer wants to hear so they can make a sale

both cars have a place as there is no simple one size fits all car on the market

but that takes energy, not from the gas engine, but it is still energy that has to be produce, so even though you avoid tail pipe emissions you produce emissions at the power station (which are likely to be less as it is more efficient but that's another thread)

we find with the Ioniqs if we keep the heating below 20 deg C, turn off aircon and use the seat warmers and heated sterring wheel it greatly reduces the running of the gas engine in the hybrid and plugin, it also reduces energy consumption in the EV as well

 

The EPA lists a full table of metrics (search "EPA test car database) which is how I knew the manufacturers had brought their data. So I wanted to look at what the 2018, five EPA test results looked like:

• HWFE(3) - highway efficiency after warm-up cycle
• Cold CO(11) - urban driving in 20F weather
• Federal fuel 2-day exhaust (w/can load)(21) - mixed cold and hot start
• US06(90) - aggressive driving cycle, high speeds
• SC03(95) - hot weather, 95F, suburban drive

So I found this 2012 description of the test cycles: Evaluation and Adaptation of 5-Cycle Fuel Economy Testing and ...

Summary:

• Prius ECO superb in 'cold weather' and 'mixed cold and hot start'
  • The exhaust heat exchanger for Prius engine coolant pays off.
• Ioniq Blue best in 'aggressive driving cycle, high speeds'
  • Those driving for efficiency, the Ioniq Blue, are unlikely to be aggressive drivers.
• Prius ECO and Ioniq Blue parity in 'highway efficiency' and 'hot weather'
  • Flip a coin and pick your poison.

Bob Wilson

ps. When I did my Ioniq Blue test drive (see Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor? | Page 87 | PriusChat), I noticed the MPG meter pegged at "99.9 MPG". Then I noticed the Fuelly data included two curious data buckets, 94 and 147 MPG.

The second one is the signature of a 'stunt driver' who would have used gas pump measured fuel consumption or possibly a ScanGauge because the built-in, Ioniq Blue MPG display clamps at 99.9 MPG. As for the 94 MPG, here is my stunt drive of a Gen-3 Prius to get a 1,000 mile tank (see Efficient driving for a 1,000 mile tank | Page 2 | PriusChat) ending with 91.8 MPG.

Stunt drivers like John and Helen Taylor are examples who often become part of press releases by car companies, Around the world on 50 tanks of petrol | UK news | The Guardian. The problem is these paid stunts give a false impression of what the car actually does in ordinary service.

 

• Preconditioning the BMW i3 brings the cabin to 72F (22C) either warming or cooling as needed.
• Cabin heat in the REx is by resistance heaters so it works best when plugged-in.
  • The BEV uses a heat pump.
• BMW i3-REx also has seat warmers but no steering heater in my version.
• Preconditioning minimize use of windshield defogging.

Bob Wilson

 

that sort of confirms what has been discussed on the other Ioniq thread, where the DCT is better on highway and the eCVT is better in town / low speeds

but over all there is not that much between them on economy, so choices are more likely to be based on brand loyalty, ergonomics of the cabin and styling which are all subjective

is that 94mpg mine? as I did have 2 fillups on fuelly at 91mpg and 95mpg for my hybrid when I was pushing the limits to see what is actually achieveable

hot weather ( >25deg C) 80+ mpg UK can be achieved on long runs as little or no warm up of the ICE is required

 

Is that another factor in the list of 'Limited PHEV's' for the Prime?
>No app or fob remote 'Preconditioning', plugged in or not?

If the i3 BEV only has a heat pump, how does it perform 'heated - dehumidified' Defrosting?
It's a fantastically High Tech car! I'm sure you saw the long video of the construction.
Only it's a RWD, so it was off my list. And those tires.... I guess it hangs in there...

I'm sure it's been brought up before, but Electric Grids have different recipes for the electricity.
You can find yours here: How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA

Isn't always cleaner and cheaper to power an EV, not even counting the Total Cost of Ownership factors?
(Except for maybe Hawaii, but they are really getting after the solar and wind installations.)

 

Or it is simply a case of user error. A 91.3mpg individual Ioniq Blue has a fill up of 2.8gals for 1600 miles. Then PHEV owners of multiple models are using Fuelly to track their gasoline only usage, with the attending misleading. Not an issue for models like the Volt, but it is others like the Ioniq and Prius.

That listing was from Italy.

From the distribution curve at Fuelly, the Ioniq Blue averages less than the Prius Eco. Yet it has wider curve, with some doing worse than the Prius' lowest and others doing better than the Prius' best. For those that enjoy hypermiling, the Ioniq is likely the better car.

 

I agree. Like chastity, it is its own reward and curse.

Bob Wilson