Prime destined to be doa?

let me get another cabernet, and read that again.

 

If I had a dollar for every time I've read here on PC of a PIP owners saying they only bought for the stickers and never plug in. OK, maybe not that bad but definitely a trend.

 

no question. hey it's great for moving the tech along, but no reason to call any plug in a 'success'.

 

Same with a few Volt buyers. In the PiP's case, the small battery meant these HOV slackers weren't sacrificing anything compared to the gen3 Prius. Then the federal tax credit and state rebate might of meant the PiP cost them less than the Prius.

Price is still an unknown for the Prime, but we do know that there are trade offs that a HOV slacker will have to make for that sticker; the Prime is no longer just a Prius with a plug.

 

I think PiP1 was probably extraordinary high sales in CA, but we do not have that data. All we know is total PHEV sales in CA, which were up to 55% when PiP1 was still out there. Prime may be more a 50-state car.

My fixation with HOV is simply related to this "DOA" thread. I feel if we have more CA green stickers, Toyota gets what they need out of Prime sales, and the "DOA" title is dead wrong.

 

agreed, as relates to doa. but even without stickers, they could easily sell 2,000 a month nationwide. not mainstream, but not doa either.

 

Sounds like that Cabernet did the trick for you

.

 

second glass hasn't let me down yet.

 

Here is Plug in America's CA HOV strategy.
They seem to be in favor of equal treatment for PHEV/BEV except they would rule out PiP1.

https://pluginamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Plug-In-America-HOV-Lane-Principles_160804v2.pdf

 

Although I'm not trading in my 2012 for a Prime - doesn't make sense to me - I firmly feel that the Prime is in no way DOA.
The sales can be hurt dramatically by 3 factors: 1) no more HOV stickers, 2) Price of car, and 3) Cheap gas.

Yet even with negatives on all 3 items, I think there are enough people out there that will buy the car to sell at least 500-1000 a month.
The question I still have is how much does TMC earn per Prime and does TMC see this car as an image enhancer - meaning it helps the value of their brand (which spills over to sales of other models).

 

with an 8kwh battery, i'd say they're making plenty.

 

While I have no plans to get the Prime, I hope it sells well, just so that it helps with the long term goal of getting people into plug-in cars, needing to use less oil/gas, bringing down battery costs, and helping to expand charging infrastructure around the world.

You know that old saying, "a rising tide lifts all ships"? That's what I'm looking at here. I'm sure I'm grossly oversimplifying it, but again, my hopes is to see more people trading in gas guzzlers for plug-in cars.

And plug-in hybrids are a great "gateway car" to get people used to driving electric without the range anxiety.

 

aren't you are contradicting yourself?

for what you wish for, you should be hoping for the best on Mirai or BEV, not the Prime with small range battery and relies on gas most of the time...

 

The Prime will cover probably 50-70% of my driving on electricity alone. The rule-of-thumb in the US is that a 40 mile range with no charging anywhere but at home will cover 2/3 of all vehicle miles traveled. Add charging at work or other places, and you either get more vehicle miles covered or you can have a shorter range to cover the same total vehicle miles. I can charge at work and at one of my other primary destinations which is why a shorter range will cover so many of my total miles. And yet, I can still go way off the beaten path where no Tesla can go even with a 300+ mile range.

 

I would say what's in it for Toyota is CA ZEV credits, and moderate sales in those markets (eg; Canada etc) with strong rebates. I also expect CA green HOV stickers are coming as soon as Gov Brown signs SB 838 any day now.

 

another thing that toyota gets is more engineering prowess in batteries and motors, just in case this electric car thing catches on someday.

 

90% of my driving is under 25 miles; the Prime would be perfect for those trips. The car's efficiency on the highway makes it doubly attractive.

 

agreed. even a pip would work well for you.

 

I'm trying to look at this realistically as well. Charging infrastructure outside of people's garage is proceeding at a snail's pace in many parts of the US, and the world for that matter. On top of that, many BEV's on the road currently don't have a lot of range, which shrinks even further for those living in extremely hot or cold climates.

This currently makes BEV's impractical for many people. With a plug-in hybrid, at least you can still drive it and then utilize the existing gas station infrastructure until charging stations are more widespread and range improves on EV's, along with lower costs so that they're more affordable for many.

Many people are still ignorant and skeptical about BEV's in general. Combined with higher cost (despite the tax credit, which a lot of folks won't get the full amount back thanks to the confusing way it's written and that you can only use it in the year you buy the plug-in) most dealerships not wanting to sell them seriously, and the slow pace of charging infrastructure being installed, you can see why it contributes to lower sales for plug-ins.

I had a discussion regarding this topic with a coworker recently. He's paying $900 a month for a Honda Pilot (he was married at the time he bought it, but then got divorced), and spends probably close to $500 a month on gas as well, though to be fair, his parents use his car a lot during the week.

He was complaining to me about it, and when I suggested a used Chevy Volt, he immediately dismissed it, claiming he doesn't trust electric cars. Even though I told him it has a gas engine in it too.

I then suggested a Toyota Prius. He also dismissed it, stating that his dad was a Honda mechanic for over 30 years, and won't touch anything but Honda's. He even went so far as to claim his dad could take a look at any Toyota, and immediately point out every flaw in their design, hinting that Toyota's engineers are morons and just hodgepodge their cars together, and that check engine lights come on regularly. Nevermind that Toyota has a better reliability reputation than Honda does.

His entire family drives Honda SUV's or vans, so it's obvious I wasn't going to be able to sway him to try out a plug-in short of Honda releasing a Volt-like car (thankfully they are, with the Honda Clarity coming out with a plug-in hybrid variant, though not for another year or two).

He then decided to try to replace his Pilot with an Acura TLX, because he wants AWD as well (another person that insists that AWD by itself is better than snow tires in snow and ice conditions, sigh). But he owes too much on the Pilot and can't trade it in until he pays it off some more.

So here's a guy who could clearly benefit from a hybrid or plug-in, but is very resistant to it for a variety of reasons. I'm sure there are millions more that have the same exact thought process he does, and it likely won't change unless gas prices jump back up to $4 a gallon and stays there for a while. Or the Tesla Model 3 does really well, since most Americans apparently only care about that 0-60 mph metric, and disregards everything else about said car such as mpg and maintenance/repair costs.

That's why I'm hoping that the Prius Prime will be bought by people who have never owned a plug-in before, and get them used to driving electric. And demanding that automakers deliver more electric range in their cars. And as more plug-ins show up on the roads, along with charging stations in areas such as workplaces and apartment parking lots, people will likely become less resistant to trying them out and maybe even buying them.

I also realize the transition from gas cars to plug-ins will be a marathon, rather than a 100 yard/meter dash. Hence why I said earlier that the more plug-ins of any kind that are on the roads, the better. And the faster that transition will happen.

 

makes all the sense in the world to me. i don't see any contradiction.