Poll: Why are we hated?

Ahem

The Insight guy is a smart guy in general; he is just used to labels and conventions from a different car. Since you are new around here, I recommend you avoid trying to piss people off until you are a bit more familiar with their posts.

 

Nonsense is nonsense whether pointed out by a newbie or not.

 

^^ Tom can speak for himself, he does not need a newb toadie to pile on.

 

Are you speaking for Tom?

 

[pre]
Units Model
11,514 Toyota Prius Liftback

3,931 VW Jetta
3,657 Prius c
3,471 Toyota Camry
3,284 Prius v

2,147 VW Passat
2,002 Chevy Malibu Hybrid
1,884 Hyundai Sonata
1,760 Chevrolet Volt
1,387 Lexus CT 200h
1,297 BMW X5
1,245 Buick LaCrosse
1,193 Lexus RX400/450h

933 Kia Optima
912 VW Golf
797 Ford Fusion
695 Prius PHV
618 Mercedes ML320
548 Honda Civic
535 Nissan LEAF
496 Toy. Highlander
494 Honda Insight
451 Linc. MKZ Hybrid
409 Honda CR-Z
402 Audi A3
353 VW Touareg

255 Audi Q7
231 Mercedes E320
219 Buick Regal
175 Mercedes R320
175 Mercedes GL320
127 Smart forTwo EV
115 Acura ILX
89 Ford Focus Electric
84 Mercedes S350
79 BMW Active E
75 Lexus GS450h
73 Infiniti M35h
49 Chevy Tahoe
49 Cad. Escalade
42 Porsche Cayenne
33 Mitsubishi i
30 Chevy Silverado
26 GMC Yukon Hybrid
25 VW Touareg Hybrid
25 Porsche Panamera S
17 Ford Escape
10 Lexus HS 250h
8 GMC Sierra
8 Mercedes S400HV
7 BMW Hybrid 7
6 Lexus LS600hL
3 Mercedes ML450
3 Altima
2 BMW ActiveHybrid5 (535ih)
2 BMW 335d
1 BMW X6
[/pre]Source: June 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars

The Volt is definitely in the third tier group. Groups boundaries occur when there is an 80% decrease in the percentage of units sold in the sorted list. Notice the VW Jetta and Passat are ranked above the Volt. This is why that might be an even better place to do Volt advocacy. They aren't as jaded by Prius-skeptics and might be more receptive to Volt advocacy.

Bob Wilson

 

Born and rasied in SoCal, I drive only one way, as fast as I can in the fast lane. Either lead, follow or get out of my way. My 2012, blows by everyone to a point I piss them off cause they dont want to be beat by a Prius.

 

One can never have too many toadies.



Tom

 

So after I've been here a while it’s OK.



Newbie or not, I actually agree with Tom's points. I also have a lot of technical experience myself, and nothing drives me crazier than oversimplification. I find that people who are engineers, no matter the exact discipline share this feeling. I was not suggesting the other person was unintelligent. I was merely suggesting that they prefer things in a more simplified form, and no amount of arguing would change that fact. Einstein was the same way; he spent his entire life searching for a unifying theory of everything. He preferred things be boiled down to their simplest form. Einstein was a big picture person; engineers on the other hand tend to see the world in smaller increments. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

I may be new to this forum, but I’m a big boy, and I will agree and disagree with whoever I wish. You of course are free to disagree with me.

 

My intention wasn't to start a name calling contest. All I wanted was to make the distinction between burning gasoline to recharge the battery and regenerated recharging. Instead our Insight friend dug in his heels in an attempt to justify an impossible position. We've all done it, but sometimes it's best to say something like "Well, yes, I over simplified that" and move on.

I have no intention of continuing to flog this dead horse; I just want the distinction to be clear for any future readers.

Tom

 

Sounds like safety and people's lives are secondary?

 

I like flogging toadies.... it's rather invigorating!

 

I'm not a skeptic.. I've done my analysis and made my choices, but I like to learn and help others learn too. There are people for who a Prius are the best choice, for others a C, for a few a PHV.. I've probably "sold" as many or more people on Prii as I have Volts. Never sold anyone on a TDI.. don't expect I ever will as I'm not a big fan as I really really hate the smell. The TDI can get good milage for a "normal" driver and, while the Prius can get about the same or maybe a little worse for a normal driver but excellent milage for a decent hybrid driver. The Prius takes longer to learn but produces better results when you do. Neither, compare to a EV or EREV, but still the Prius is better.


I've read the TDI forum from time to time, though never felt anything strong enough to want to join/discuss the TDI. Few posts there I'd want to read, and mostly I visit to read as I read way more than I post ;-) If you don't like my posts, the formum has a way to allow you to ignore me -- right click on my name, then on the page that it takes you to click ignore.

Thanks for telling me where to go, though I rarely listen to such advice. Almost makes me want to actually do some advocacy..

 

I drive my Prius in Plano Texas (Suburb of Dallas) and I've experienced the unpleasantness from other drivers. A tendency to own SUV's and 'go fast' cars here. In the weeks since I've owned my Prius, I've gotten headlight flashes, horn honks and high speed pass rounds from other drivers. My other vehicle is a Ford Expedition and I experience none of the rudeness when I'm driving that.

 

With the new TDI's, you wouldn't even know it's a diesel. There's no smoke, smell or noise. If it wasn't for the fact that VW's are unreliable, I'd still be driving one. There's no hate on them, except for here and Princeton, NJ.

 

Well I have learned a little more than expected as a result of the tangent. Back on topic I drive the same in my maxima I get the same treatment regardless . I got 22 mpg in my 79 Chrysler Newport I have used the same conservative driving style all my life but I will speed up and get over for somebody haulin it I brake to let others merge when no one is around I practice even more conservative driving habits. I do not know who is from Texas and I do not want to step on any toes but could you please use your turn signals.

Thanks
Jen

 

Yes the Clean diesel's are cleaner, though I can still smell my co-workers 2011 Golf TDI it's not bad enough to make be gag.. But sooner or later your gonna have to fill the tank. Just that smell makes me want to puke.. I don't miss visiting a gas station at all, but I generally avoided any station with diesel.

I looked into a diesel, considering doing biodisel, but as I looked into making it and the overall efficency I realized a PHEV was a way better match for my needs. And only getting 45-55mpg overall is unacceptably low for my driving patterns.

 

No more or less than any of the other Prius skeptics who have decided that their 'answer' is the right one and anyone who disagrees is nuts. But that is OK, exploration of their opinions, the dialectic, often leads to insights on both sides. It is critical for separating fact from FUD and often leads to insights on both sides.

Recently, Consumer Reports panned the "Prius c" and received more than a little criticism for it. But it turned out to be an opportunity to reverse-engineer their evaluation criteria. Now we know mileage has no effect on their score but rather Consumer Reports have hard limits on acceleration, driver comfort, noise, and emergency handling.

So every Prius-skeptic/<tbd>-advocate presents an opportunity to learn and explore the limits. Some hold up but many are soon reduced to the absurd.

In this we agree but there are areas of investigation that should be fleshed out. Areas that a Volt-advocate might not volunteer. For example, this study found in a Volt forum:

Source: Cost per Mile Comparison: 2012 Volt vs. 2013 Prius Plug-in

This is the type of critical analysis that helps folks understand the two technologies and make an informed decision. But whether we're dealing with a Prius-skeptic or a Volt-advocate, they both share a common flaw, the inability to present all facts and data or rather 'spin' what they want to claim. Another example is using the term "Pious" without attribution until the other half of the dialectic cites the poorly posted original. The excuse, 'it wasn't me but someone else and I was just repeating it' does nothing to correct the original post.

Now this is another perfect example of a claim unsupported by facts and data. Worse, because it is so readily available IF one looks. Now when the TDI-advocates/Prius-skeptics were being pests, I generated the following chart:

Notice the chart dates from 2008 when the TDI-advocates/Prius-skeptics were particularly pesky. The significantly smaller, Jetta TDI was presented as a Prius alternative. But the distribution of owner reported mileage, a normal distribution, shows "just drive the car." There is nothing special needed to achieve Prius mileage although it helps if the car is maintained for efficiency. Instead, we get this uninformed opinion:

One of the things the dialectic does is keep everyone honest:

Advocacy and its evil twin, Prius-skepticism, are found by the 'tells' the posting patterns. Implicit in these patterns are the weaknesses:

• inappropriate postings - so a thread about "why-we-are-hated" gets Volt advocacy posts, sometimes called hijacking a thread because they are so off topic.
• absolutes - there are no 'shades of gray' or an evaluation model. Rather absolute terms like "superior" are dropped as if there is no reason to doubt the claim.
• sense of persecution - well this is real. Go into someone's house and call their baby 'ugly,' the Prius-skeptic, or 'I've got a prettier baby,' the <tbd>-advocate, and it invites an answer and sadly not always well thought out.

Of course putting someone on the 'ignore list' is always an option, a two-way street. But there is another approach that requires self-discipline . . . avoid the 'tells' of inappropriate postings and absolutes. It helps if you bring new, empirical data. So let me suggest something where you might be able to provide a useful insight.

Go to the Prius Plug-In forum and start a thread addressing the question:

What is the optimum EV range for a plug-in?​

Start with a table that surveys the existing Plug-In vehicles, their payloads, range and prices. Be sure and include the after-market, plug-in kits, and cover the full range. Then see if you can come up with a model that answers the question. This is often called a 'trade study' and you'll be well served if you Google up the elements of a 'trade study.' But right off the bat, you'll be posting something appropriate in the right forum where folks who 'have a dog in that fight' are likely to read, understand, and like a 'stone soup', contribute to everyone's understanding.

Bob Wilson

 

What I've noticed is that they get pissed and have to pass a Prius who's doing 70 in a 55mph zone, but they're perfectly happy to sit back behind a pickup or SUV who's doing 70 in a 55mph zone.

I personally experienced that exact situation this morning on the way to work- a guy had to pass me while I was doing 70mph- but he was content to tuck in behind and follow the huge SUV ahead of me who was also going 70mph for at least three more exits.

For whatever reason- some people feel they just can't sit behind a Prius no matter haw fast the Prius is driving.

 

Sometimes, the 'green' chemicals are unstable. This pic was taken in 2010 and the 'virus'/Worm-Tracks problem is spreading, getting larger! So, the real question is, should impeachment hearings be started immediately?

 

Around here, it doesn't really make much difference in what kind of car you're driving.
If the other driver is a fool, he will do something stupid.

The last speeder that kept zooming up behind me at 60 mph (on a 35 mph residential road), slamming on his brakes, slowing down and repeating the trick, ended up crashing into a car that was stopped to make a left turn.
His brand new Mercedes nailed the Camry pretty hard. My guess, both totaled.

I wondered about the term De-badge (removing Hybrid & Toyota logos). Is this done because of jerks that hate Hybrid cars?