Plug in Prius - Most Environmentally Friendly Vehicle in Study

You did not list your electric % in the Volt.

It would be accurate for anyone who never took any trips that were longer than 11 miles, but I am unclear how large a population this might be. If your trip is longer than 11 miles the Volt will have a higher electric % than the Prius.

Since I average between 110 and 280 miles a day, I am not going to get 50% electric from either. (Although I would have purchased a Prius v PHV, no question, as I could have recharged 2 to 3 times a day)

 

Nissan advertises Leaf as "zero emission". EPA rates Leaf 115 MPGe while Prius 50 MPG. One can easily conclude (incorrectly) that Leaf is the greener vehicle.

I think you are referring to Leaf's EV mile. Just making the distinction because the EV mile depends on which vehicle. The EV mile on PiP is less carbon intensive than a regular 50 MPG Prius. The EV mile on Volt is more carbon intensive than Prius.

As the grid gets cleaner, Volt's EV miles will eventually get to the regular Prius level but Leaf and PiP EV mile will be cleaner accordingly.

 

One of the thing the report revealed is that more electric miles does not mean cleaner. Using the average grid mix, Leaf (100% EV) needs to drive 205k miles to be as clean as a regular Prius.

1) Volt uses more electricity per mile than the Leaf. 2) It also has more manufacturing carbon debt. It will take a very long time or you'll need to be in the state with very clean grid to achieve Prius level. That's if you manage to drive Volt with 100% EV.

 

I'm simply saying that 50% EV in the PiP is not wildly unlikely. Since I don't have a Volt I can't "list your electric % in the Volt". And I have no idea what the Volt does after the battery runs out. The PiP does nicely in providing more EV miles depending on the terrain.

 

But my quote you replied to was this:

And you claimed it was "wildly accurate for me", so I was asking what your numbers were for both cars.

Now we find you did not read my post well.

 

Ranking cars by their Carbon footprint is IMO the point of this study
If someone did not realize the necessity of cleaning the grid until reading this report, then he has been in a cave for decades (and I don't mean you, just using your expression).
The grid must get cleaner, period.

 

Completely agree that the grid needs to be cleaner.
The report did an excellent job showing how much cleaner it got from 2010 to 2012.
However, showing the lifetime carbon footprint over just 50,000 miles is misleading.
At the very least they should have focused on 100,000 miles and shown values for 150k as well.
Instead the focused on 50k and gave some time to 100k.

I also would love to see more details about their calculations for EVs construction.
It is difficult to tell how accurate their calculations are for mass of the EV motor and batteries.

 

I did not see the emission for recycling at the end of lifetime to complete the entire lifecycle.

 

You are correct. Sorry for the confusion.

 

If you include recycling cost, should you not consider product built with some recycled product instead of 'fresh' manufacturing?

As you see, some aspects get very complex.

 

Yea, I see the point. There may be overlaps to obtain the raw materials.

 

The current grid is clean enough (just fuel WTW) for full EVs to compete with gas Prius.

It needs to get cleaner to pay off the battery manufacturing carbon debt. Toyota had been saying smaller battery capable of more recharge cycle is better and we now understand better.

Battery manufacturing carbon footprint can be reduced as well as cleaning up the grid. It can be attacked from both angles.

 

Agree to this.

 

Interesting report... Toyota marketing should hype this and interior space/ cargo to goose sales.

 

I agree that Volt drivers, on average, should see more EV miles. But this may be a bit self-selecting. People who buy a Volt probably have a longer commute. People who buy a PIP probably have a shorter commute.

Even if you drive the PIP >62 mph, you are still taking advantage of the EV charging.

Mike

 

Then they should use some "real" numbers for the lifetimes of cars, not 50K and 100K. Of course, they don't know the real numbers for a Leaf or a Volt, since they are new. But there have been Prius' in the US for 13 years. A "study" would mean that they go find out how far an average Prius goes before it is scrapped.

In related news last week or so a study found that the average age of a car on the road hit a new high...I forget the number but it is like 11 years old. That is average, not end of life.

Mike

 

Self-selecting can go both ways though - PIP has the best mileage out of the PHEVs when on gas, so people who have long commutes (or at least put more weight on a longer trips) may pick the PIP, all other factors aside.

 

Remember, Leaf's battery warrenty was 5 years / 60k miles. It was later extended to 8 years / 100k miles after Arizona owners reported capacity loss after a year in severe driving condition.

The report noted caution was taken because the lack of real world data for Lithium EVs. To my knowledge, no EV on the market has 150k miles battery warrenty, not even Tesla.

Well, the 85 kWh model has unlimited miles warrenty but it must be within 8 years.

 

California Hybrid Battery Warranty, 120 months / 150,000 miles as stated in the Toyota Warranty and Maintenance Guide.

 

The Tesla web site indicates a lifetime warranty for the high end Model S. I don't know the exact definition of "lifetime" on the actual warranty documentation.