PIP - Leaf - Or Volt ??? - Help Me Decide

Thanks..

FYI, there are a lot of more efficient Volt drivers than me (see voltstats.net) My lifetimes stats are not quite as good (about 130MPG, 75MPGe) as I've had many longer (about 1450 of my 5500 miles). It helps I have very cheap green power and am an efficient driver (I'm averaging between 30 -31kwr per 100m, about 15% better than EPA estimates. )

I've talked people into Volts, and talked potential Volt buyers into a Prius. Depends on what they will do with the car. As I recommended above, the real answer if one is interested in efficiency is to look deeply into personal usage. That should included estimates for long trips, which is why I have a Volt and not a Leaf.

I agree the Volt is not for everyone, but for some, like me, its a great car. My commute is well matched to is range, and I really enjoy knowing I'm driving with the wind...

 

Buying a 2012 Volt is actually less of a risk than buying a 2012 PiP, the Volt is on its second model year, they are now in stock at several Chevy dealers in my area, so I don't have to custom build it and wait. I've driven Priu now for 10 years, time for a change, and the Volts EV range is what I need to be mostly gas free, while still having the ability to go further. Ideally I'd like a 300 mile Tesla, that would work as well, but for that price you can have a Leaf and either a PiP or a Volt. The issue there is storing 2 vehicles, insurance for 2 vehicles. Both the Volt and the PiP are compromises until battery technology gets much better (range and cost)

 

I was an early prius adopter and am now an early Volt adopter (both times traveling out of state to find them).

I loved my classic prius, it was a great car for a long time and never gave me a spot of trouble til the traction battery failed.

The numbers are the numbers and have been discussed ad nauseum. My main suggestion is to test drive a Volt (if possible in sport mode). If you drive a prius now the comparison should be fairly immediate. It is difficult to describe or quantify, but the Volt is very fun to drive.

For the first 2-3 years after I bought the prius I was sure my next car would be a prius. Then I decided I really wanted a plug-in, but wasn't brave enough to buy a new car and install a kit (kudos to those who did). I hoped for a couple years Toyota would come to market with something more like the larger kits, but nothing showed up. Then I started following the Volt and saw exactly what I had been hoping for, something that would let me drive like an EV most of the time, but never wind up stranded waiting for a slow charge.

I am now thinking the Volt may be my last car (my wife and I are talking about retiring onto a sailboat to cruise the world), but it is by far the best car I have ever owned, in terms of efficiency, driving experience, and fit and trim/ luxury.

 

Prius technology is in a 15 years mature state.
More risk jumping to a 5kwh battery PiP than a 16kwh batery Volt?

 

Mitch,

According to NPCC New England, 56% of the electricity are from fossil fuel. 28% from nuclear.

Prius PHV needs 3 kWh for 15 EV miles (200 Wh/mi). Volt needs 12.9 kWh for 35 EV miles (369 Wh/mi). It is clear Prius PHV is more efficient with both electricity and gasoline.

I think Prius PHV 95 MPGe is with some gas blended. Otherwise, 200 Wh/mi is equivalent to 169 MPGe.

I understand your want for something different and Volt seems compelling. From that "bored" perspective, Volt is a better choice. Hopefully, you won't face "You never know what you have until you lose it".

If you want the game of optimizing both fuels, Prius PHV is the way to go. Divide your commute into sections when it is best to use electricity or gas.

 

Would you really choose between two very different high-tech cars, that take very different approaches to reducing gasoline usage, merely on the basis of looks??? Nobody in their right mind is going to make that decision based on looks. People buy a Leaf or a Volt because they want to reduce their carbon footprint, and a person who has made that choice is going to consider how their individual driving pattern fits the two cars' strategies, as well as handling, performance, trust in the company, etc. If all you car about is looks, get a Tesla Roadster, or a Porsche.

Have you driven the Leaf? I thought it was quite nice. I've never driven a Volt.

Emphasis mine.

Some pretty decent bond funds are paying in the 3% range, and with a bit more risk you can get 4 or 5%. True, they are not as safe as FDIC-insured CDs or US savings bonds, but for a small risk you can get decent returns.

Nobody is giving a warranty on the rate of battery degradation. GM says their techs will decide if your battery has degraded too much. Considering GM's track record, this is no guarantee at all.

The bottom line is that as a buyer you have to decide how much you trust the technology, and by extension the company's R&D. All of them will replace a defective battery. None of them will promise how long a pack will last. If you are not willing to take that chance, you should probably wait a few years and see how the cars do in real life.

Just like the Prius "unintended acceleration" ruckus. The media does not care about news. It only cares about ratings/circulation, and will broadcast/print whatever gets the public attention. A company can be made or broken based on the media hype of a non-event.

 

There is risk to buying first year models and generations. There is likely even some risk with refreshes. Even with no errors in the design, assembly workers are still unfamiliar with model or changes. Which can lead to errors and issues for the buyer.

No manufacturer is immune to this. An article in CR on this from about 10 years ago used the second generation Rav4 as an example of how far a first year model reliability can drop from previous generation's or the manufacturer's average.

 

Toyota Sees Plug-In Prius Exceeding Volt’s U.S. Fuel Efficiency

Toyota Sees Plug-In Prius Exceeding Volt’s U.S. Fuel Efficiency - Businessweek

 

Here we go again with usb-spin


14% of MA power is renewable, and anyone in the state can pay for 100% renewable if they choose. There is a list of providers
Green Power Network: Can I Buy Green Power in My State?

While I'd agree, assuming the new press announcement is 95MPGe for pure EV, the Prius PHV is more efficient in both EV and gas mode, the limited range may make it less efficient overall as it has to use the gas more often. The numbers USB is spouting are his optimistic guesses, for the PHV vs EPA measurements for the Volt.



If you are doing 32miles and can charge at work and do lots of long trips as well, the Prius PHV might be better. If you are doing 32miles, but cannot charge at work and don't do too many long trips (or have a second Prius for long trips, then the Volt may be better.


If you want the win game of optimizing fuels usage, you'll need to look at your milage/usage and do some estimates. Don't take someone elses suggestions as what is better -- we dont know your needs. If you want help PM me and I'll help (though until EPA numbers are out its still guessing)

 

If they run out of green credit to sell "renewable" electricity, will they decline your purchase?

Leaf would be even better if he has a second Prius for long trips.

 

Leaf would NOT be better, I just orphaned my Leaf, it arrived on Monday. I need a 1 car solution, I am not paying double insurance, double storage, double depreciation for a single person, makes zero sense.

The Volt is a better choice for me, has enough EV range so that my full daily driving is gas free, I do not go on may long trips, but I go far enough some days that the Leaf will not work, never mind the winter range reduction/usage of the heater in winter to further cut down on its limited 70mile highway range, and the PiP, well, lets just say that does not have enough EV range to be worth it to me. I have a 2010 Prius that I will be trading in/selling for the Volt or PiP. for the driving I do, the Volt makes more sense. Once again, I do not want to insure multiple vehicles/store them/or deal with the depreciation of them either.

 

We're still making assumptions because the Toyota statement was vague but if 95 MPGe represents all-electric combined city/highway then that number is only slightly better than the Volt's 94 MPGe combined electric estimate.

Although it would be literally true, it is isn't really helpful to consumers to say the PiP is more efficient based on that tiny difference. Small differences in driving styles or traffic patterns would make that efficiency difference unnoticeable to actual owners. It would be more realistic to say they scored essentially the same.

 

I did a quick test drive of the Volt. It drove well enough. But, I couldn't get in or out comfortably. That and the backseat was a joke. while I would use it for solo commuting, it would have to carry the family too. IMO, the volt can't - especially not compared to a prius. My leaf lacks toe room in the rear, but is tolerable for shorter trips - and I don't ever see how anyone will be in the back for anything but shorter trips.

Mitch - how's the Volt's access ergonomics for you?

 

I hear you. My 06 Prius is the only car since my wife takes the public transportation. When I need to upgrade, It'll be Prius PHV or Prius v since we are planning to start a family.

Upgrading from 2010 to 2012 plugin wouldn't make sense. That's true for upgrading to any car, in fact. How many gallons will you save more? How many did you save when you got the Prius?

Since I can now telecommute, my commute pattern has changed. Take the changing commute pattern (for whatever reasons) into account as well.

About 27% of the population drive between 15 to 35 miles in a day. That means Prius PHV would be a better choice for the rest of 73%. That'll play into the resale value and resale opportunity. When we find out specifics about Ford Energi models, that "sweet" range for the Volt will become even narrower.

 

What is the source for that % data?

And even if correct the % does not yield the conclusion for the best choice.. it also depends on long-trip, other driving behaviors and their alternatives.

Tank-to-wheels energy wise the volt is more efficient for commutes upto more like 50 (depends on actual PHV EV range and what the new numbers really mean), and more if people can charge at work. Leaf is more efficient for people that can live with its range or have better options for long-trips (e.g. leaf + TDI)

 

It is from SAE 2011-37-0033.

15 miles = 24 km (44%)
35 miles = 56 km (71%)

 

correct, upgrading from a 2010 to anything makes zero sense, however, we buy cars for other reasons. I drive 15K miles/year, i have driven Priu for the last 11 years (since 2001), my annual fuel costs are about $1000-$1200, so I'm not going to save money, I'm going to save actual gasoline, and be less dependent on oil, which is the goal. The Leaf is nice, but I need one that has 150-200 mile range, and thats called a "Tesla Model S", and its still too pricey.
The Volt is a good compromise, since it uses its full EV range, before using any gasoline, unlike the PiP. I can stick with the 2010 Prius, or if I get a decent trade in offer from either the dealer or carmax, I can take the opportunity to upgrade to the Volt. not upgrading is fine as well, so it really depends on getting a decent price on my trade, as I can stick with what I have and be fine for many more years. Its not that I *must* have a plugin, its *want to* more so.

And, I don't know how I will fit into a Volt, I still need to go on a test drive. I'm not worried about carting the family around, as I am single and not worried about that at this point, being 52 already.

 

I don't think thats a good interpretation of the data.

I see the graph showing the Volt as a better choice for 80% of the US population with commutes less than 75 km or so. Even if the pip is less than 1% more efficient in pure EV, even on short commutes it may not be able to stay in pure EV. Also the Volt being 53% more efficient than a Pip for miles 15-35 will give it a lead it will take a few miles for the pip to make up being only 26% more efficient for the miles thereafter (until recharge). In fact 75 km is generous, it probably is closer to 75 miles where the Volt will be better.

 

Did you read the warranty? It does say they will replace it. Do you suggest that they should not have a tech test it but should instead just take an owners word that capacity is less than 70% of original capacity?

 

I don't remember if I've seen the warranty. I think I did. While it mentioned 70%, it did not say specifically that the battery would be replaced at 70%. It says that the tech will decide if the pack has degraded more than it should.

That's not a warranty. The language is misleading and actually makes no promises.

They will replace or fix a defective battery, as will all the EV manufacturers.

Note that ANY warranty repair is dependent on techs confirming that there is an issue, but warranties do not make such a disclaimer. The GM warranty is obfuscation. There is no promise there.