PIP EV range falloff

13.4 ... is that really that bad?

 

For about 2 years now, I am monitoring my charging (to full) by kWh counter.
Looking at the results when charging from known starting SOC levels (5 and 4 bars on the HV battery icon) I see a reduction in capacity of ~3.5% per year.
Batteries do loose charge capacity in time and use, we all know that. I think 3-4% a year is within the limits of normal wear taking into account the extreme measures taken by Toyota to keep the battery healthy.
BTW, results also indicate that the 8th, 7th and 6th bars are each 'worth' (or holds) about 100-110 Wh, 5th holds ~40 Wh and 4th holds ~25 Wh.

 

why don't they just tell us that? john1701 says no degradation.

only compared to 16+. btw, 42 days, and still waiting to hear from toyota.

 

Just crested 4 years on my PiP ownership. I finally noticed some degradation. I have a standard route that I was able to drive entirely on EV previously. Over the past few months, the ICE came on more and more. Now, I always need the ICE to complete the route.

I'm actually a happy customer, though. From 12 EV miles to 10 EV miles in 4 years. 17% degradation at roughly 2000 charge cycles (2x a workday X 4 years). I am shocked at the low level of degradation. I compare that to my 2 year old iPhone 6 with 700 charge cycles with some 30% degradation. Although I always wonder if some of my degradation isn't included in the 15% software limit that Toyota imposes on the battery to never charge beyond 85% SOC.

Are you really going to have the dealer do a diagnostic on your PiP, Bisco? If you're getting 13.4 EV, I think the chances are likely they'll find nothing wrong and you will foot the bill.

 

Tell us what?

Are you still on the original tires?

 

that 3.5% a year is normal and to be expected.

 

They say it - in the manual, without specifying a number. 3-4% per year is only my opinion based on experience.

 

then you're experiencing the same defect as me!

 

They wore out at 90k miles last year.

 

Hopes and aspirations aside, I don't consider 3-4% battery capacity reduction per year as a defect. Surely Toyota will not consider it so.
Of course, with all Toyota's precautions taken, I hoped for a bit less but lets face it - batteries do age and this rate is very low.
After all, with the PiP it is a bit less EV and a bit more high efficiency HV, that is a big advantage over other plug-ins.
Do we have dependable indications of batteries aging rate in other plug-ins? Volt?

 

but that's my whole point. why didn't prius team just say that in the first place, instead of the whole dog and pony show. we stated our degradation on the first page of this thread. instead of showing it to the engineers, and coming back with something like your answer, we get calls from toyota, a boatload of questions, a case #, a promise that a dealer will call, and zero follow up. this thread could have been one page.

 

I am not their advocate but just trying to understand their viewpoint.
They are probably reluctant to give range or upper limit of 'normal' aging as there is one important factor they cannot control and that is the owner and his behavior.
So, their approach is probably to take each complaint by itself like the scheme they have offered to you bisco, I don't know how deep and to what resolution they can check history of the car but surely they have some tools in this respect and extremes are registered in the 'black-box'.
The fact that over 1.5 months or so the dealer did not contact you is beyond my comprehension. Toyota should have followed-up with him by now.

 

i wish they would check the black box, the car has never been over 25 mph.

 

I don't have it on me, but I believe the warranty document specifically says traction battery degradation is not covered by the 5 year warranty issued by Toyota Europe - is there something similar in the US?

This is also stated in the manual:

They don't mention any specifics as to what is acceptable degradation - I guess they don't know what to expect really, considering lack of experience with Li-ion batteries in cars and big variations in environments and driving conditions between different owners.

 

yes, there is something similar here. that gives toyota all the hand when it comes to warranty.

47 days since toyota was going to contact me. see what i mean?

 

At 47 days they have either simply forgotten about you or they are scared of potential ramifications.

I wonder which?

 

Toyota who? Your dealer? Customer services?

And what specifically are you waiting for? That detail is long lost.

 

sorry, i talked to hq, got a case number etc., they said the dealer would contact me in a couple days to bring it in for testing. but as i said before, when i told him i didn't take it to a dealer for service, there were suddenly crickets on the other end of the line...

 

I would expect the EV range to decrease over time - and as time increases, the rate at which the range decreases should impact this as well.

My "estimated" EV range has decreased from a high of about 14.5 to around 11 in the past 4.5 years, but the actual range has remained about the same - that is, I still travel about the same distance on the same charge now as I did when the car was new. Some of that may be increased skill at managing the throttle on my part; presumably the computer in the Pip continues to make whatever adjustments are needed as the battery ages. Now that I'm a year into a new set of tires, I'm getting better mileage overall than I did when they were new - which is expected.

 

What does Toyota charge for a new battery?
Nissan takes around 5000-6000,- for an all new Leaf battery.

Toyota is the same all over the world: They care about the collective, but don't care about the individual. Bracing!