One more reason to hate Microsoft

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(trillium @ Jun 27 2007, 01:28 PM) [snapback]468936[/snapback]</div>

Because PC is written in capital letters. Makes it easier to see in a sentence when you're scanning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jun 28 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]469342[/snapback]</div>

I thought the future of IT was that all apps would eventually be web-based, not server based. Wouldn't that make the whole platform thing moot?

 

No, the future of IT is that all apps will be wax-tablet based. Society will crumble before everyone agrees on a single computer platform

As long as it works for you, keep using it.

I have both a G5 tower Mac and a Dell econo-business-box PC on my desk at work, with identical software sets. I'm very proficient with both OS's, and MUCH prefer to work in a *nix environment. The G5 is "better." Yet I still prefer to work on the PC 100% of the time because I'm more productive and less enraged by it.

But hey, I'll still agree to disagree.

 

vtie:

This statement is blatantly wrong, for each and every instance you have noted. Surprising coming from you -- IT smart guy that you are.

I don't have an intel based Mac in the house. Show me how I have been left behind, if you will. But first you may wish to google 'universal' apps on the macintosh platform. Also note that in Apple land, the OS, all the iApps -- in fact AFAIK all the software that Apple writes -- are G4 compatible, which is around a 5 year old CPU. Included of course is upcoming 10.5 later this year.

Actually, the only area I can think of that the G* cpu based software world is not keeping up is windows emulation -- and one can hardly fault Apple for that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jun 28 2007, 03:17 AM) [snapback]469280[/snapback]</div>

Apple basically <strike>fu</strike>lovingly caressed all of their third-party developers at the recent WWDC when they announced there would be no 64-bit Carbon and the only solution was to go with Cocoa.

Example 1: http://lists.apple.com/archives/Carbon-dev...n/msg00289.html
Example 2: http://trolltech.com/company/newsroom/anno...6-19.6756913411

Despite the annoyance of Microsoft adopting the LLP64 data model for their 64-bit tools, 64-bit ports of everything I've been involved with have gone smoothly on Windows.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 28 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]469610[/snapback]</div>

Do you think you need to teach me software development? I even developed applications for NeXtStep on a nice black Cube

Seriously, you don't get it, because you only see it from a consumer perspective. For business applications, the other way is much more important, and there is the problem. On my PC, I can run applications that are 7 years old. The industry is bulking with custom 3d party legacy applications that need to run on todays computers. Wintel has a big tradition in preserving that.
Fortunately, Apple is changing their approach with universal binaries, Cocoa and objective C 2.0 runtime indeed. But how does this help you if you need to support a legacy business application that is 7 years old? And please don't mention 'emulation'...
One more example to give you some feeling of what we are talking about: I can deploy my 10 years old MFC based C++ code on Vista right away, using the full new GUI. No changes needed. I can even port it to 64 bit with minimal efforts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jun 28 2007, 07:32 PM) [snapback]469503[/snapback]</div>

Errr... web-based and not server-based? Can you elaborate a bit on that? Sounds fascinating...

 

When Apple went intel they ceased supporting the apps for Classic 9.

Gee, they refused to support applications written for an operating system that was almost a decade old.

How dare they. Why...all of the Windows programs run in Vista......right?

I'm still working on a G4 Titanium that can boot and run Classic 9 as well as OSX. I might get a newer computer depending on how much money is left after I install the PV and replace my driveway. If I can afford it, I'll get a top of the line MacBook. If I do, I won't be able to run the Classic 9 programs anymore. I have 1 left. It's a program for formating papers in APA style. I bought it for my masters program. When I bought it asked when they'd come up with an OSX version. Every year I ask. There is still no OSX version.

Any programmer that doesn't want to code in OSX deserves to be left behind. It's a profession in which you must constantly be learning and utilizing the latest. It's a field that is all about growth, not stagnation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jun 29 2007, 06:50 AM) [snapback]469921[/snapback]</div>

Programmer you may be, but history revision gets called out, as will ignorance. Perhaps you should just admit a bias against Apple.

On to a bit of history --
68000 to PPC transition: Code Warrior
OS 9 to X: Carbon
PPC to Intel: Universal binaries through Xcode.

As for Intel's long and glorified history of back compatibility -- that is a happenstance borne of Intel's failure with VLIW computing.

 

Pretty good for a company that doesn't even have 'computer' in its name any more!

My experience as an end user is that the Mac isn't really any more stable or user friendly than a PC. My PC crashes less and I kind of like how the Microsoft OS reminds me of an ugly, clunky version of System 9. I don't really care for 3-d desktop icons or the other System 10 eye candy, and really *hate* how Apple's mice still have only one button.

I'm also deeply fearful of Apple's media licensing schemes and hope to never allow them to be my 'one stop shop' for music and entertainment.

Gotta go...I'm paying someone to stand in line, to buy an iPhone for me...


Geez, that reality distortion field is STRONG today!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 29 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]470231[/snapback]</div>

I use a Wacom graphics tablet
Two buttons on each side plus a scroll wheel in the middle and the tablet has four more buttons and a scroll bar. All programable. And there's a stylus too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 29 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]470231[/snapback]</div>

I know; I use a Wacom tablet and set the F-keys on it to do all sorts of things, and the wireless mouse that I got with the machine does have this teensy little scroll wheel...

But still, the one button mouse seems to me emblematic of Apple's attempt to make their computers seem more simple than they really are (it reminds me of general aviation, where they always pitch flying as hardly more difficult than driving a car, when we all know it's not like that at all).

Another beef: This is purely a personal opinion, but Apple product design continues to strike me as somewhat arrogant. There *is* some great design going on, but too often it seems like design for design's sake and doesn't really solve existing problems/creates new ones which didn't exist before. That wireless mouse, for example, looks like a piece of sculpture on its own, but the shape actually has little to do with the shape of the hand of the person who will be using it to interact with a computer. It's small enough to have been designed for a child.

 

It would be nice if Apple were greener. They have one of the worst environmental records in their industry according to the Boulder hippies at Eco-cycle. <_< :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 29 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]470264[/snapback]</div>

I agree. A week or two after I bought my new Mac, I dropped the wireless mouse about two and a half feet onto a wood floor.

It broke.

I wrote directly to Steve Jobs...*not* to request a replacement, but to ask them to *please* build more durable products that are designed to be repaired and not replaced when they fail.

How did they respond?

One of his "assistants" called...and said that they'd gladly SEND ME A NEW MOUSE at no charge!!!

I didn't accept their offer, but did take the time to reiterate my concerns. The "assistant" simply couldn't understand why I didn't want another one...even after I explained that it was constructed in Taiwan of parts made in the U.S. and China...shipped back to the USA in an overpackaged state...then worked for a matter of days before failing and ending up in the landfill.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 29 2007, 04:00 PM) [snapback]470231[/snapback]</div>

I have a Logitech wireless track ball. I love it. And it's harder and harder to find these trackballs. Which amazes me, personally. I don't understand why anyone would want to move a mouse around when one can just move fingers.

 

i've been building my own pc's for years and never had any major issues. esp. like the ones mentioned here but i'm not a power user. anyways i can't wait to take the jump into macs. i'm looking forward to getting a mac laptop. not sure which one though. anyways i think pc's and macs (eventhough i don't own one) are great for the market.

i wonder what people's take on apple's ipod is in this thread? i've had so many issues w/syncing and my ipod freezing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 29 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]470348[/snapback]</div>

No arguments here; honestly I'm neither a Mac *or* PC fan. I tend to think of them more as tools than as political or other types of statement (though that's not always the way I felt).

I do not know; not supporting all the files and apps that ran on System 9 was kind of a bummer; the way Safari starts up on its own when you click on a 'mailto' link and guides you through the dot-mac setup process (if an actual eMail address is not visible, I must view the page source and input the address into a hotmail message via Firefox in order to respond, since I don't want to pay extra for dot-mac)...they're both insidious.

Apple markets better, and that's why I tend to dislike them more (my own trip). And their environmental record isn't very good, either, as I mentioned.

As long as it's possible for me to buy music that's not licensed, and play it on a device that's not connected to the Internet, I'll be happy; I don't requre much...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ 2007 June 29 11:52 AM) [snapback]470178[/snapback]</div>

I kinda like the Apple mouse, though I haven't tried the 'tail-less' version. The small integrated trackball is more accurate than the touchpad I used and loved for years, and I find the shape to be quite comfortable. There's a software switch to configure it for two buttons, if you prefer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jun 29 2007, 07:12 PM) [snapback]470353[/snapback]</div>

You can modify this.

I have Mozilla as my default browser. When I click on a link in mail Mozilla opens. I prefer it because I can specify where I want a downloaded file saved and can change it with each download. With Safari it goes to a folder I've already made and I can't change it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jun 29 2007, 06:03 PM) [snapback]470065[/snapback]</div>

If they are well written, yes.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jun 29 2007, 06:03 PM) [snapback]470065[/snapback]</div>

There you say it all. Why would I even bother spending 300% more effort on the constantly changing Mac platform, where they continuously introduce new API's without caring about legacy code, only to cater for 5% of the market? I don't think Apple even knows what legacy code is. Sorry, but the industry is depending on it.
Microsoft managed to keep the C++/MFC development platform the same over 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP and Vista, and now also 64 bit. Nothing I need to change from my part. On top of that, it works for 90% of the market. Isn't this great?

If I were only a consumer, I might have switched to Macs years ago already. But as a developer, PC's are by far preferable. And, believe me, this is how the vast majority of the developers think about it. Perhaps only Linux is able to challenge this.