Featured OH No! Toyota Might Ditch the Prius c, v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon) and Plug-In Hybrid

The discussion is about this market, here in the United States only.

What does the domestic market (Japan) have to do with that?

It should be quite obvious that the same approach just plain doesn't work. That's why Estima (AWD hybrid minivan) was never introduced here. That's also why Aqua (Prius C) is such a huge seller over there. That's also why RAV4 hybrid is such a big deal here now.

Who is the market for Volt ?

 

I wasn't going to point it out as it happened so long ago, but ....
The toyota didn't do the car as a refresh, they claimed they were going to release a phv in 2010 along side the volt. The gen III was supposedly designed with the phv in mind. Delays happen (my guess is panasonics batteries sucked, and they delayed it until they had the good ones, from sanyo research, in the phv) and they did a demo program, but didn't seem to use any of the feedback from the US.

Why does the Japanese market failure matter? Well the small battery size looked from the start to be designed to sell in the Japanese market. Toyota even got congress to lower the minimum battery size to 4kwh, so it could get credits for a phv designed for japan. When they didn't sell in their major designed market, well there was finger pointing. If it was just planned for the US there would have been a bigger battery, and they would have rolled it out to more states. Thus we have the only explanation for the hiatus. They needed a major redesign because it didn't work in its target market or its secondary market (US). You couldn't simply add more batteries to the gen III, it needed a whole new redesign.

If you ignore what was happening in Japan, there is no rational explanation for toyota's plug-in strategy.

I'm not sure about the estima. It might sell better than the highlander hybrid.
Toyota Estima Hybrid Minivan
There isn't a gasoline version sold in north america though, so it would take resources to make it US legal, and I'm guessing toyota doesn't really want to spend them. I don't blaime them, but people have been asking for such a vehicle. Perhaps the chyrsler pacifica will satisfy them. Most of the people asking do live in single family homes so the plug should not be a detriment. Chrysler says most minivan round trips are only 29 miles, we will see if the 16 kwh pack is rightsized or sized for the tax credit.

I didn't realize the RAV4 hybrid was a big deal now. It is coming out at a bad time with low gas prices, still its one of the few bright spots in january hybrid sales.

I may have a good idea of that, and have told you in the past, but gm seems to be confused which is keeping there dealers and customers confused.
General Motors Explains Why Marketing The Chevy Volt Is Difficult
Still January sales and the fact that the 2017 is in production already may mean consumers go in to buy them even if the dealers are incopetent to sell them.
Chevy Volt Sets Path for More Electric-Car Growth - WSJ

Gen II engineering seems targeted to make initial adopters even more satisfied with the cars. Most daily trips can be done from the battery, with efficient highway milage for longer trips. GM added space for a child seat in the middle back, but this is a 2+2 and has more limited appeal as the soccer mom or family trip car, its the commute or trip for 2 and a dog car.

If gm dealers ever figure out what an excellent engineered car they have and decide they want to sell it, sales will take off. They are going to be mainly on the west coast, michigan, Texas, and a smattering of east coast north of north carolina. It is a regional initial adopter car. Expect hate to stay from dealers like Mike Kelly and this limits growth, as does the seat layout.

 

0,5liter/100km extra for a 7 seater Prius, yes I would.
2 litres/100km extra for a 5 seater SUV, no I wouldn't. Only if I had to tow.

 

Another reason Toyota never brought over the Estima, even as an ICE model, is that it is almost a foot shorter than the Sienna.Minivan buyers in the US choose the class for the space. If they are fine with reduced space for a hybrid, Toyota already had the Highlander and RX ones. To attract US buyers, the Estima would have to get bigger, increasing its price and lowering its fuel economy. Because of our MPG labeling, the rating will look too modest for the 'hybrid premium'.

We never got that third row in the US, and it changes the desire and selling dynamics of the car. We likely won't get it here. Leaving the v a Prius with more cargo space for lower fuel economy, or a short Rav4 without AWD. If it does stay in North America, it will still only have modest sales.

 

Choose a context. We could address what happened in Japan, but that would be futile. After 5 years of having to deal with the "United States" only precedent, it should be obvious. That is the past anyway.

Toyota took a flexible approach, building into the plan the ability to adjust along the way. Many didn't like that. In fact, some outright hated that. There are a few who still hold resentment. It proved a wise move. Learn what you can without major investment risk.

...hence not competing with it. We know that the goal of Toyota is to replace traditional vehicles with high-efficiency, low-emission choices. That means the actual competition is within Toyota's own product-line. We all want to see interest drawn on the showroom.

Yup... which is unfortunate. Again, we want to attract new buyers. That means GM appeal to its own loyal customers. The idea of conquest sales turned into a disaster. People drawn from other automakers took advantage of the bargain-basement lease deals, then jumped ship when the lease expired.

Sadly, we all understood the appeal of small SUVs and knew there would be a major effort to keep gas prices low.

Toyota did their homework and continued refining the hybrid system. Now, they can offer a competitive RAV4 hybrid.

 

Unable to sell plug-ins is really not a reason! How about this?

Cadillac Boss: “We Are Not A Bunch Of Luddites” On EV Tech, But Even Tesla Isn’t Making Money

 

It might not seem that hard for you and I, but apparently it is for Toyota. They lost a lot of customers who went from a Prius to a Volt, or a Prius to an electric, not necessarily due to the other manufacturers having superior models but because Toyota simply doesn't offer anything with a plug at this point in time. The new Prius PHV will have range "substantially more than the gen I" but that's not hard considering the gen I's 11 mile range, but it also won't get the boost from the California HOV stickers that the gen I had.

 

After reading the above thread; plus, the news reports that Scion is being discontinued, then add to that most readers think the front end of the v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon)'is absolutely atrocious; and now, the goofy looking new Prius, I'm wondering, isToyota in trouble?

It has been alleged that the new Prius was redesigned to appeal to the more youthful buyer. Well, the Scion was aimed at the same age group. But it is being discontinued, does that mean Toyota is unclear who the youth are? or what their taste are?

Personally, I have no thought about Toyota's upper management, but I most definitely think they need new blood in the design department.

 

toyota is fine. they're wallowing in cash from truck and suv sales. it's the environment that is in trouble.
customers have even left hybrids for gassers because of <2 bucks a gallon, because they bought hybrids to save money, not for moral, ethical or environmental reasons.

 

Are we reading too much into this? Scion Brand to Transition to Toyota

Owns Dahaitsu now! Google Translate

 

huh? You chose a really strange version of history that doesn't make any sense. Yes I chose the context where the small battery, the cancellation of roll out, and hiatus makes sense. As I said I was ignoring this, but then you added me to the discussion when I replied about the future.

I am more than happy to let the past rest, as long as we don't learn the wrong lesson.

I thought they moved engineering resources to the mirai, and took on more investment risk. That has come up in the shareholders meetings. Did they squander a lead they could have had in phevs? Probably, but perhaps they can recover. I don't see a flexible approach. They chose small battery for plug-ins and fuel cells for longer range vehicles. I hope in the next prius plug-in they will as they have said use a bigger longer range battery. Until they anounce and price it, we have no idea if they have learned, or are just single focused on plug-ins only for short range as they said in 2009. I know some people in toyota get it, but others like the Chairman do not.

I thought outside of japan toyota is making a smaller percentage of hybrid and phev vehicles. Am I reading the wrong numbers. They are doing quite well on the gasoline Rav4 and the Tacoma in the US.

a big majority of volt sales are conquests from other brands. Toyota is the leading conquest. It also appears to have worked as a halo. That gm can't figure out how to train their dealers to sell it is sad. Yes conquest sales mean many volt buyers walked into gm wanting a volt, many potential sales were turned away from either hostile diealers or badly trained ones.

Can we get back on track on this discussion. I mainly commented on why toyota would make anouther prius phev. You intimated that their next phev might not be a prius. You never addressed that, you just brought up the past and the volt.

 

I looked through some forums and didn't find anything myself about this, so if it's already been posted, I apologize in advance.

I was googling info about when possibly the Gen.II v & c may come out, to which I found an article from AutoBlog & Green Car Reports that show speculation of cancellation of the v & the c models.

It reads as follows:

"Toyota may be adding by subtracting when it comes to the biggest Prius. The Japanese automaker just came off a year where sales of its world-beating Prius were cut by a combination of lower gas prices and what appeared to be a decision by customers to wait for the new-generation Prius liftback. Now, Toyota is thinking it may be better to do without the Prius v wagon altogether, and possibly the Prius C compact hybrid as well, according to Automotive News.

Toyota introduced the Prius family – including a wagon and compact variant of the hybrid (as well as the Prius Plug-in) a few years back with visions of having the Prius line usurp the Camry and Corolla to become Toyota's top seller. The company even went as far as changing the names of the compact (which was known as the Aqua in Japan) to bring it within the golden halo of the Prius. Those grand family plans appear to have been dashed. Toyota is now saying that sales of the standard liftback Prius may jump 30 percent this year, now that the new generation has been introduced last month (check out our First Drive review here).

Why might the idea of an all-dominant Prius family take a back seat? Automotive News, citing Toyota North America CEO Jim Lentz, says the v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon) may be particularly irrelevant because of last year's introduction of the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid SUV. A Toyota spokeswoman Amanda Rice said that no specific decisions have been made yet about the future of the Prius C or the v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon).

"The previous-generation Prius continued to perform in line with our expectations, which is especially good at the end of its life-cycle. In fact we saw a best-ever December and best-ever calendar year sales result for the Prius family in the State of California in 2015, our largest Prius market," Rice wrote in an e-mail to AutoblogGreen. "Fuel prices are at a five-year low, which tends to spark more trucks and SUV sales. But Toyota's hybrids are still strong. Overall Toyota hybrids account for more than 60 percent of the market; we recently hit our 8 millionth sale globally. We take a long-term view when it comes to our product decisions, because while fuel prices are currently low, they will ebb and flow."

Last year, collective Prius sales fell 11 percent to almost 185,000 units, and were especially hurt by the 68 percent plunge in Prius Plug-in Hybrid sales. Liftback sales dropped 7.3 percent to almost 114,000 units, while the C and v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon) variants' sales declined 5.1 percent and 8 percent, respectively."

I don't know how true this is, and if it is, when it could happen.

 

They targetted 20,000 in the US, and sold 13,000, 65%. They were on track to beat that number in 2014, when they decided to cool down sales.

Well we have a guy at Cadillac that has in the past been openly hostile to plug-ins, and gm is telling him you need to make plug-ins. No problem that he pulled the plug on the ELR, but this guy is no one to quote. Tesla is not making money on EVs because they are investing more into R&D and construction of the model 3, super chargers, gigafactory. If you account for it on a project basis the model S has very high margins - 23% last quarter, with 25% if you include selling of credits earned on the cars. That is higher than all of gm's cars, but they do make that kind of margin on some trucks and SUVs (probably the escalade has margins like that). Cadillac would love to have the model S as a sports sedan along with the escalade for conspicuous consumption.

Both Toyota and Mercedes did make a lot of money in EVs though they did it by buying tesla stock.

Toyota as a corporation is doing fine, but they fail at understanding how to get young buyers. I think the look of the prius liftback will not help them, but it won't hurt traditional prius buyers from gettting one. Toyota marketing under wantanabe utterly failed to understand the 18-35 year old market. Akido Toyoda is trying to right the ship and get there, but there is a lot of dead wood and it takes time. I think the dead wood designed the look of the mirai and gen 4 prius.

 

Toyota has had 51% in Dahaitsu for awhile now. This just shuffling paper. Ford had only 30% or so Mazda at the peak, and look how much product sharing and development they shared.

Flexibility is a good thing. My comments heren't are really about Toyota's actions, but the double standards of some of their supporters.

 

Leadership is the ability to get ordinary people to change.

Volt was brought up because it claimed that achievement, but only attracted early-adopters and conquests. There was no penetration into mainstream buyers.

I said it might not be called a Prius. Giving it a different name has nothing to do with the hybrid system.


Merged.

The "double standard" belief often emerges from plug blindness. We see a lot of greenwashing from the perspective of it not mattering if it doesn't have a plug... which means they disregard the regular Prius and all its production/exposure benefits entirely.

 

Or the hostility is because he still can't sell them?

 

Agree totally.

Several other points:
1. Nowadays there is little value/return in making a car look overly different/unique, that market no longer exists
2. No point in parallel product lines with different tech, just make best selling cars more efficient, better overall and with new tech
3. The Mirai is the only 100% exception, that too because its still very new tech, in another 20 years the best seller could be a Corolla FCV
4. The Prius used to be the same but that was a decade or two ago, the market has moved on but some people haven't

 

Personally, I want the Toyota HSD/THS/THS II/THS II and all future variants to be available on every Toyota chassis made as an option. Then where possibly, seed the improved AC, steering, and engine technologies into the other cars. So I can at last buy the Toyota miniVan that I want to have.

Heck, given the hybrid haters have only one word, 'Prius', kill off the line and let them sputter about a term that has as much relevance as 'Hummer' or "CNW Marketing.'

Bob Wilson

 

I think there may be a small market in the USA for those "Mebius" badging items for a Prius v. I wonder how much it would cost for the parts to rebadge a v inside and out.

 

Yeah, I don't understand the space arguments. We tested the Gen 3 right next to my v before we bought it. Didn't like the front seats or console of the Gen 3, loved the extra space in the v. When we did the golf bag and bowling bag tests, the v won out by a large margin.

I've never, ever heard a complain from rear seat passengers either. Fairly wide, reclining. On a very long trip, we had two adults front and back, plus a ten year-old in the rear seat as well. Legroom was fine, and heard many compliments about room in general.

The only things hindering the v are drag, and drivetrain. I'd think as is a Gen IV drivetrain would help, a lot.

If I had to go to a small SUV I'd be driving the Mazda CX-5. The Rave 4 doesn't interest me anymore, and I really, really don't like the Hondas.