NOT Normal P Lock Malfunction - ONLY Happens Over 80 Degrees. Never When Cooler

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Rock_Star, May 25, 2024.

  1. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    Yes, pin to ground and both connectors disconnected.

    I think I get what you're saying but maybe not. The wiring chart on page 262 shows H17-9 going directly to T4-7 and I didn't see it doing anything else (but I could have missed it.) In that case, your theory makes sense. But the H17-10 seems to connect to a lot of different things, so it seems plausible that there's supposed to be a high resistance because of some device in that circuit. And since it's low, it seems that indicated that the current would be bleeding off to ground, hence the low resistance and the P lock error. That's just my shade tree mechanic logic. Maybe it's not true. Whatever the reason, I assume Toyota knows what it should be.

    I'll redo those tests today and see if I get the same results.
     
  2. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    OK thanks maybe I'll be able to find it. I know roughly where it should be and I see the shape of it on page 384.

    I just saw the drawing of a junction connector. It's feasible that one of the "short terminals" is the problem. Maybe I can open up the connector and see them and tell if any are bad.
     
  3. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    If PPOS is not just point A to point C then all of those other connectors must be released before the "check for short" will be a valid test. Because other paths to ground may exist normally.

    I think that none of the other connectors must be released for the "check for open" path. Because even though there are other connections, none of those result in an alternate current path through the ohmmeter. The path between A and C may be carried on more than one wire in the cables, but as long as there exists at least one complete path between them the test will pass and the cable should work.

    If you still get different resistances to ground from A and C then put the positive lead on ground and the negative on the pin and measure again. Because that is strange and changing the polarity may tell us something.

    Also measure resistance A to C. If the short to ground accompanies a break between A and C then different resistances to ground from those pins is possible. Imagine a circuit which is A-B1-R1-B2-C and B1-R2-GND and B2-R3-GND. (This is a triangle B1-R1-B2-R3-GND-R2-B2 with paths A-B1, B2-C coming off two of the vertices.) If R1 is zero then you should be measuring the resistance to ground of R2 and R3 in parallel from A or C, but if R1 is large or infinite (open) the A-GND and C-GND can have different values corresponding to R2 and R3, respectively for infinite (open) R1.
     
  4. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    I couldn't find the J14 connector. It must be behind the AC vent box and I didn't want to take that all apart.

    I did the
    PCON (H17–9) or PCON (T4–7) – Body ground
    PPOS (H17–10) or PPOS (T4–8) – Body ground
    tests again and had zero ohms on all of them. (Supposed to be 10kOhms or higher.)

    I used a few different ground points just to be sure and it all came out the same as before. BUT I just learned that I've been misreading my meter. It read "OL" which I was interpreting as zero. The meter's manual says that means "the input is too large for the selected range." The meter reads MegaOhms so hard to believe that the resistance is beyond that. Maybe that's a sign of something.

    Then I plugged in one connector and did the test on the other one's pins, and vice versa. That changed things.Those actually did show 0.00 ohms. But since the connector is plugged in, that's against the diagnostic instructions. Maybe it means something. Also when doing that there were pulses of resistance apparently. I think it would go blank and then back to 0.00.

    So if those OL readings mean mega mega resistance, that's over the 10k it calls for so maybe it's not the cables after all.
     
  5. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    After the above testing...Today was 88 degrees and 90% humidity. I ran the car in the driveway with the AC cranked, planning to drive and see if I got the P lock error. After sitting there 5 minutes in the cold air and not even putting the car in gear, the P lock error came.

    Maybe it's a clue that the car doesn't even have to be in gear or driving to get the error?

    That still keeps me thinking that the problem is on the engine side of the firewall. It didn't happen instantly, so perhaps five minutes of engine heat is all that was needed to put it into error mode. But on the flip side, when it was 78 degrees I ran the 140 degree hair dryer on all of the wires and components I could get to and didn't get the error, so maybe not. Or maybe I just didn't get the hot air in the right place for long enough.

    I inspected all the wires along the firewall again and didn't see any damaged ones. There's plenty of places where the squirrels have eaten the insulation off the hood and firewall, but I didn't see or feel any damaged wires. Still could be though.

    The P3102 diagnostic says these are the trouble areas:
    Wire harness or connector
    Transmission control ECU
    HV control ECU
    Power source control ECU

    Power source control ECU seems to be above the steering wheel on the firewall. Potentially getting hot from the missing firewall insulation?
    HV control ECU is to the right of the glovebox close to the body. Potential radiant heat from outside getting to it?
    I did run the hair dryer on/near them for a couple of minutes when it was cooler and didn't get the P lock error so maybe not.

    I'm running out of ideas for what it could be. Maybe I just need to start replacing ECUs.
     
  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Throwing ECUs at it isn't the way I'd proceed, but it can be hard to give ideas about diagnostic technique over the internet.

    You've already posted freeze frames showing collapse of the supply voltage reaching the transmission control ECU at certain moments. If it were me, I'd be pursuing that lead aggressively.

    In an older vehicle, I once wired an LED into a suspected intermittent circuit and taped it to the dash, so I could drive around and just see when the LED went dark.

    The same thing might be useful here. A question could be: is the voltage reaching the transmission control ECU really dropping, or is there some fault inside that ECU and it's imagining that the voltage drops? A light independently wired in there would give you an independent answer.

    There are electrical testers that make a buzzy noise instead of a light, so your eyes don't have to be on them. They can be hooked up to some wiring while you concentrate on shaking it and stuff.

    The first page of a DTC section in the manual will give a list of several different things as possible trouble areas. That doesn't mean to just assume any of those things might be causing the problem. The list will include crazy unlikely, but just conceivably possible, causes: the kind you don't start fussing with unless there's evidence you've picked up while troubleshooting that clearly points there.
     
  7. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    OL on meters means "out of range". That is, the value is too large to measure. In this case that means the resistance to ground is huge, as it should be if the insulation is intact. Be aware though that you would also see OL if the wire near the pin being tested was broken with a gap introduced, or even if the ohmmeter lead wasn't plugged in.

    Historical trivia. There is some disagreement if OL stands for "Open Loop", "Over Load", or "Over Limit". OL arose when displays used 9 segment LED numeric digits and the only symbols that could be made were composed of combinations of those segments. The maximum value in the significant digits was 1999 (for a four digit display). If the meter needed to show 2100, for instance, it could not, so all such values were shown as OL. Meters with more sophisticated displays today will often show a phrase like "over range" instead.
     
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  8. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    Or use a cheap DMM (Harbor Freight sells one for $7, sometimes less) set in voltmeter mode and tapped into the questionable 12V wire. That way you can also see if the voltage starts to decrease slowly as it approaches the failure point, or if it just collapses all at once. If you can get access to at least a cm of bare wire perhaps use a posi-tap - it only makes a pin hole in the insulation and can be removed (and reused).

    Posi-Tap- No Crimp Tap

    If there are multiple wires you want to monitor, you could use a multiposition rotary switch, run one wire to each position, and the meter to the common. Something like this:

    Rotary Switch - 10 Position - COM-13253 - SparkFun Electronics

    Just be sure that whatever switch you use does not short neighboring pins as it rotates. It shouldn't, but check before using it.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Rotary switches are made both ways, shorting on purpose, or not shorting. So, the kind that shouldn't, shouldn't.
     
  10. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    Good idea. Not sure how to do that though. I assume those buzzing circuit testers would need to be connected to two points, but which two?

    Would I be looking for a drop in voltage or ohms?

    Assuming I find a drop in one of those, I assume I'd still have to root around and try to find a bad wire, but at least I might know which circuit had the problem.
     
  11. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    Those positaps would be great to have. I can't find any locally. Auto zone has these which should do the trick. But they don't look removable like the positaps are.
    https://www.autozone.com/miscellaneous-non-automotive/electrical-wire-connector/p/dorman-conduct-tite-blue-16-14-gauge-t-tap-terminal/297424_0_0?searchText=positap

    But, I'm not sure which wires to tap into, what I'd be looking for, or how to test. I assume I'd need to attach the multimeter to two wires, or maybe one wire and ground, but I have no idea which.
     
  12. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    I had to order positaps from Amazon or Ebay, don't recall which. Possibly fakes, but they work. None of the local car parts stores had any. Note that they come in different sizes, pick the one designed for the gauge of wire you will tap. (They cover a pretty wide range.)

    I would start with whichever wire supplies 12V to the TCU. If the wiring harness is of the type where the wires near the plug can be moved apart some then you can tap the wires there. If that isn't possible you might be able to back probe the pin at the connector. This guy makes his own back probes:



    or you can pick up a kit, like this one:

    Back Probe Kit, 22-Piece

    I have never driven around with a back probe in place, but if it is secured tightly with several zip ties it shouldn't fall out. It might however lose connection to the back of the pin. Be very careful that the back probe itself cannot short to anything. Tapping the wire would be more reliable.
     
  13. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    OK Gotcha. I actually did that the other day and posted the results in message #54. I tapped into the back of pin 13 on the TCU
    "It only varied by a few hundredths of a volt--13.78-13.84 depending on how much I was accelerating and/or the hybrid battery was working."

    I only tested pin 13 of the TCU which someone above told me was the 12V pin. I never thought to also test the other 4 pins in question on the TCU and HV ECU. I'll do that tomorrow. Thanks.
     
  14. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    Today I ran the P3102 diagnostics again because now I know what "OL" means. When I posted about that yesterday was interpreting OL to mean HIGH out of meter range. Today while testing it dawned on me that it most likely meant LOW out of meter range. If I hold the probes in both hand then it's up in the 9-10 Megaohms. But as soon as I release them they go to OL, which I now interpret as no resistance.

    So in this case for "check for open", zero is within range. But "check for short" zero is way out of range. So I think that confirms the issue is a short in one of those two circuits. The two pins on both connectors all show OL.
     
  15. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    I MAY have stumbled upon something today. It was 84 degrees this afternoon. That's lower than what would normally set off the P lock error immediately, so I put the hair dryer on all the wires near the firewall, inverter, ECUs and wires around the glove box and a few other places. I left it in place for 10 minutes at each place and didn't get the error.

    Then I did it under the driver's side dash again and after a few minutes, the P lock error happened! I see no damaged wires but the Power Source Control ECU is there and that's one that Toyota says to replace to fix the issue. I'll test it again tomorrow to see if I can replicate the issue again or if it was a fluke.
     
  16. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    No, it is no conductance, the exact opposite.

    Think about it - if there is no path for current to flow between the two probes then the measured resistance is infinite. (Air isn't quite a perfect insulator, but for the purposes of this discussion let's say that it is.) The meter can't tell the difference between "infinite resistance" and "resistance too large to measure", and in all such cases it shows "0L".

    There is only a short in a cable if the connectors are all unplugged and the measured resistance between a pin and ground is a small number or zero. That is "0", not "0L". This concerns a short from the wire directly to some piece of metal attached to the car's body. There are also shorts that go from one wire to another wire and in that case the low resistance path that results would be from one pin to another pin, usually on the same connector, but not always so in wiring harnesses that fork.
     
  17. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    That sounds promising. At this point you need to figure out exactly where that ECU is so that you can aim directly at it. The ECU will have a circuit board in it, and broken solder connections can be temperature sensitive. The solder cracks but maintains an electrical connection until thermal expansion opens a gap in the crack. If you can make that component fail with applied heat, but it (temporarily) recovers if you tap it (flick it with a finger, if it is too far away for that, tap on it with a dowel or some other nonconducting rod), that would be a very strong indicator that the ECU is bad, and that the problem is a bad solder joint. Tapping it may or may not allow recovery of the hot ECU, but blowing ambient temperature air from the dryer should. In short, if you can drive that ECU in and out of failure with different temperature air applied only to it, then that ECU is almost certainly the problem.
     
  18. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    Ahh OK. So that would mean that the resistance is uber high on those wires, and since Toyota says they should be above 10k ohms, these are not out of spec. Hence, no short circuit?

    On the flip side, when checking for open circuits...the spec is to be BELOW 1 ohm, so OL in this case means uber low. Hence no open circuit?
     
  19. Rock_Star

    Rock_Star Junior Member

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    I was hopeful but today it didn't happen like that. It was 84 degrees and I put the hair dryer on the Power Source Control ECU and connectors for 15 minutes and it didn't give the P lock error. The hybrid battery was getting low so I went for a drive to charge it up. By then it was 85 degrees. Backed out and got no error. As soon as I put it in Drive I got the p lock error.

    To test the "cool air" theory. I cranked the AC and drove for 15 minutes. I cleared the code and it came right back many times. Then I went back home, kept the AC cranked, and blew an 8" desk fan on the Power Source Control ECU. Every time I cleared the code it came right back, so cooling off that area didn't make the error go away.

    So maybe setting it off with a hair dryer yesterday was just a coincidence and it would have happened anyway from the ambient heat.

    Seems I can't set off the error from anywhere I've tried. The only places I haven't put the heat gun are on the wires along the driver's side door jamb. I did the passenger side yesterday.

    Today I'll buy the Dr. Prius upgrade and do the full hybrid battery test. It's probably a longshot, but I have heard that it can cause seemingly unrelated issues.

    If it's not that, then I'll take it to an auto-electric place and hope they can figure it out. As far as I know, there are no Prius specialists in the Louisville, KY / Southern IN area.
     
  20. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    correct

    nope.

    When checking for an open circuit between pins A and C the resistance between A and C are measured. Because the resistance from one point on a wire to another point on the same wire is typically very low, the spec calls for a value of less than 1 Ohm. Some specialized ohmmeters may give an underflow error on a value which is too close to zero, but the odds are that isn't what you are using. They usually just round 1 microOhm to 0.000 (or however many significant digits are available). 0L would indicate high resistance in this scenario too. If you suspect that somehow your ohmmeter gives 0L on a very low resistance circuit do a positive control - just touch the two leads directly to each other. You know that the resistance in that circuit is tiny so the result should be zero. If the meter keeps giving 0L when it shouldn't in resistance mode suspect a broken wire in one or both of the probes. Cheap probes often break like that. Also, there is a battery in the meter, be sure it is still good. Like a Prius, a multimeter can do odd things when the battery goes low. Although, thankfully, most put up some sort of low battery warning.

    Summary that might be useful (cable unplugged at all ends, test only at pins A,C and at a ground):

    A-C (no shorts, no opens) A or C to ground is very high resistance, A to C is very low resistance
    A-B-C (short at B to ground, no opens) A or C to ground is low resistance, A to C is very low resistance
    A-B1, B2-C (no shorts, open at B1/B2) A or C to ground is very high resistance, A to C is very high resistance
    A-B1, B2-C ( B1 and B2 shorted to ground, open at B1/ B2) A or C to ground is low resistance, A to C resistance is at least
    the sum of the A to ground and C to ground resistances

    very high resistance will often display as 0L, it might also show as something like 1.999 10^9
    very low resistance will usually display as 0.000 (the number of digits varies between devices)
    any other value will be some number larger than zero
    on auto-ranging meters also have look for a "k" or "M" or some other indicator of the multiplier to see if it is 1,1000, of 1000000 Ohms
    on non auto-ranging meters set the appropriate range for the value being measured. (That, is don't try
    to measure 50 Ohms in the 200k range, it will usually round down to zero even if it is really 50 Ohms.)

    Luckily <1 Ohm is usually good enough for dealing with car wiring problems, and we don't care if it is 0.1 Ohms or 0.001 Ohms. Because accurately measuring very low resistances is very difficult. See for instance:

    Accurate Low-Resistance Measurements Start with Identifying Sources of Error | Tektronix
     
    #80 pasadena_commut, Jun 20, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2024