No more Prius Prime.

Haven't had an EV anything since 2007/8. I've explain why, and my EV plans elsewhere.

The IIHS and CR seem to be the only groups trying to rate these systems effectiveness. IIHS is coming out with a new rating system. First batch of results should be soon, but one of the new categories is in how well it monitors the driver. Supposedly, no car today would pass the new test.

CR is also looking at the monitoring systems, "Consumer Reports said that its 2022 autos Top Picks, which will be announced on February 17, will include evaluations of driver monitoring systems. CR will add two points to a vehicle’s overall score if it features a system that encourages safe driving as part of the model’s active driving assistance package.

CR said only Ford’s BlueCruise and GM’s Super Cruise systems will earn these additional points.

CR said in 2024 it will start docking two points from the overall score if the new vehicle lacks adequate driver monitoring. That will increase to a loss of four points starting with 2026 models." Super Cruise was there top rated system in 2020.

Did Toyota mention driver monitoring yet. It sounds like TSS 3.0 is an 'econo' version of what the 2022 Mirai and LS500h got in Japan. That isn't a slight. Lidar is yet to be mentioned with what the Prius is getting.

 

Dismal gas mileage on your Outback.

Did they fix the oil-consumption issue?

As I said, the electronic-safety system on your Outback is at the level of TSS 2.0 at best. TSS 3.0 on 2023 Prius Prime is a substantial improvement over TSS 2.0.

Yes, it will come with driver monitoring.

How can the system on Mirai be better as it is TSS 2.5+ while the system on 2023 Prius Prime is TSS 3.0? You should understand that how well the AI performs depends on the software, and with every version update, there is substantial improvement on the performance of the AI. So, TSS 2.5+ is worse AI than TSS 3.0.

The "advanced drive" on Mirai (LIDAR you're talking about) requires a ten-year subscription. I will pass given the cost and how buggy self-driving AI is at this stage (hint: Tesla). It is much better to wait for TSS 4.0, 5.0., etc. instead.

2022 Toyota Mirai Teammate features | Advanced tech

 

Still have to go through the worst of winter, but my average in the Outback is better than with the Camry.
Cylon (Subaru Outback) | Fuelly
Des's Camry (Toyota Camry) | Fuelly
It is partly because the Subaru is more comfortable; I take it easier on the commute. It does fares worse on freeway trips.

Comfort is why I didn't consider a Toyota. The Prius was lacking in space and tow ability. If I had considered a Rav4, it would have been the Adventure, not the hybrid. The other cars test driven were the Ranger and XC60.

Your Prius lives in a glass garage.

No problems here except for the early death, before 5000 miles, of the catalytic converter.

We'll have to wait for the third party ratings.

My econo statement wasn't about whether what system was better. It's about cost. Lidar can be a pricey addition.

 

It sounds like you're getting about half the gas mileage I'm getting with my Prius Prime (~ 65 mpg actual round-trip in mixed driving (mostly highway) without EV charging), in addition to lacking plug-in-EV driving.

Yes, Prius Prime is not an SUV.

I've had no problems whatsoever with my Prius Prime. The current model doesn't have an oil-consumption issue. Why did your catalytic converter fail?

TSS 3.0 on the Gen 5 Prius Prime should be great, but I'll have to buy the car to see.

 

I was getting 58 to 62 mpg in the 2005 Prius.

The Outback is for truck and travel duties. If GM had made the Bolt price announcement a month sooner, I'd have stuck to the original plan. Keep the Camry for travel, and get the Bolt for commuting. I was only checking out cars at the time,because of the high trade in values of the time. Came across this 2022 Outback Touring with 4400 miles listed for around the same price as cars a year or so older and over 10k miles. I drive about 18k miles a year. Once this wagon has some miles, I'll start looking for a used BEV. Kicking around the idea of putting the deposit down to get on the Aptera list. If the new Prius can be reasonably expected to cover my 61 mile commute most of the year, I'll consider it. I just don't have high hopes about the seating position from past experience. I considered the cost of a Volvo for the seats.

The cat was replaced under warranty, so didn't look into the codes. Maybe the original owner did something, or contaminated gas got into the car. I could have just won the bad part lottery. When millions are made, a tiny failure rate still yields hundreds of units.

Sounds like there can be an issue with the current Prius exhaust heat recovery system leaking coolant. My 2005 had the loose exterior window pillar plastic trim pieces. Odds might favor a Toyota being trouble free, but it isn't zero. In the '90s, CR had Subaru down with the domestics in reliability rating. Today, there doing better.

 

If you were getting 58–62 mpg on Gen 2, you would be getting 75–80 mpg on Prius Prime.

I am not aware of any issues with Prius Prime.

Gen 5 will have a lot of improvements, but it will be very hard to get.

 

Lots of shared parts between the Prime and Prius.

 

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

Can you actually buy a 2023 Prius Prime, or will it be more of the same from Toyota where you simply cannot buy them and dealers have wait lists 2 years long and won't even accept more orders or deposits?

My local dealer told me this the last time I contacted them:

To hear Toyota's press releases you would think they're just having a minor reduction in output. The reality on the ground is that you cannot buy any of the Toyota models above and can't even get on a waiting list for them. They simply don't exist in reality.

 

I’m not expecting Toyota or any mfg to flood the market with new cars anytime soon.
You’ll be able to buy one after they start arriving, then hopefully at msrp at some point.
Discounts unlikely for a long time

 

You literally cannot purchase most Toyota models around here, nor can you even get on a waiting list. Purchasing a Toyota is not even a viable option right now. I'm just wondering how long Toyota will keep this up. Other manufacturers are impacted, but not to the point that you just literally can't buy one ever and no dealer will even accept orders or deposits for them.

 

I don’t think there’s any way to know.
Toyota isn’t doing it intentionally .
It’s one thing to keep supply tight to keep prices up, and another to have very little supply to offer.
I think we’re going to have to get beyond the chip shortages, shipping problems, and Covid effects in general.

 

Yes they are part of the driver assistance pro package which I got. It also has the 360 degree camera system, which makes parking very easy. It can park itself like my Prime Limited could.

 

Panoramic-view monitor (PVM) and advanced park will come under the solar-roof package with 2023 Prius Prime XSE Premium. That should bring the MSRP to ~ $38,000.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Part of the improvements seen between the Prius generations was in the system software. Much of what hypermilers were doing manually is now in the code, and the mpg potential is no longer as high. Hyundai hybrids now seem to be the car of choice for those looking to get the highest range over EPA.

Not sure where the Ford's stand in terms of being able to beat the EPA. The Escape hybrid wasn't on my list for the Outback's role. Wanted something with a higher tow rating. The car will also be doing less than 10k miles a year in the future, and I didn't want to worry about the traction battery under those conditions.

 

Thermal efficiency has increased quite a bit with the generations. I doubt Hyundai's hybrid system is as good as Toyota's. The current thermal efficiencies seem to about the same at 40%. I could get 110 mpg actual round-trip in stop-and-go traffic, beating most motorcycles.

Next Toyota Prius hybrid: 40-percent thermal efficiency from engine, Toyota says

 

Yes, it should be a little higher because it is part direct-injection. We should see similar thermal efficiency with the Gen 5 Prius/Prius Prime.

 

The engine in the Ioniq matched the gen3 Prius at 40%. The figure has not been released for the new Niro. I did learn that the Smartstream engine in it has dual port injection, and Hyundai has been using it for nearly as long as Toyota.
Hyundai’s 1.6L Turbo-4 Sophisticated, Remarkably Efficient | WardsAuto

But I'm talking about how easy it is to get the best efficiency and maximum potential from the car on a drive.

 

Gen 4 has 40% thermal efficiency. Gen 3 had 38.5%. Camry Hybrid still seems to have the world record for a production engine with 41%. Hyundai and Nissan have been claiming to try to reach 50% in the future.

It is dual direct injection/port injection, not dual port injection. Direct injection results in a higher efficiency, but it causes intake-valve deposits. Toyota used the trick of adding some port injection to clean the intake valves with gasoline.

Ultimately, your mpg will be limited by the thermal efficiency. If you could hypermile well with Gen 2, you would be able to hypermile even better with each increasing generation.

Now, does anyone (@Salamander_King ?) know if the larger battery in Prius Prime allows more regenerative braking than in non-plug-in Prius? You would think it would. That would increase the HV mpg quite a bit.