Nissan Leaf vs Prius

DDoouubbllee PPoosstt

 

With the right equipment, you could charge your Leaf with your PHV

Very inefficient, yet it could be done.

You can also power some household power loads in a emergency with a Prius:

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...n/57004-4-200-watts-pure-sine-wave-power.html

 

Industrial standard for the battery end of life is 80% of the original capacity. This would mean, Leaf's battery will last about 5 years. Nissan has not stated their definition of "end of life". At the rate of 4% degradation per year, at the end of 8 years, Leaf will be able to hold only 68 miles EV range.

This is very important information for potential buyer to know. It can make or break the purchase.
How low the capacity must get before the owner can opt for the replacement? Will Nissan replace with the "better" battery pack for free?

This post is not meant to raise FUD. We just need the answers to these questions. The longer Nissan wait to answer, the more FUD may grow.

Please note that the source of my information is from Nissan Leaf's competitor fan site.

Source

 

Which industry is that ? Consumer laptop or cell phone battery industry where the batteries die out in 3 years ... ?

According to Perry after 8 years the battery will have about 70% of the range.

 

Automotive industry standard. Does that mean Nissan is going with 70% as end of life?

 

cellphones have no standards. the batteries tell you they are good for "300-500" charge cycles which is about right. my cellphone batteries generally have about 70% of their charge left after about A YEAR

as far as Nissan goes; they did it right. they UNDER advertised the range of the Leaf. they posted several scenarios and do have some where the range is less than the stated 100 miles but in ALL those situations, the car is primarily working to maintain climate control and is not moving or moving very slowly and the predominate factor in the under 100 miles traveled is the undue amount of time it takes to make the trip.

 

Which automotive industry ... are you talking about hybrids which need to meet CA ATPZEV or some such standard ?

How long does Tesla's battery last or warranteed for ? That is the only highway capable EV we have today in the US.

 

Tesla's battery has a 3year warranty. There are no real standards. I use a lap top battery and cell phone battery until they go down to 50% of recharge capacity. That really isn't acceptable for a pure BEV. For me the key is that until there are standards the manufacturers have a clear percent capacity for failure, and realistic numbers on how long in cycles and/or years it should take to need replacement. I would hate for politicians in California to further delay BEV introduction by putting insanely long warranty requirements on batteries. Nissan appears to be doing the responsible thing. We really won't know how good the batteries are until they are in the field though.

 

I think the 4% drop per year is exponential, so it would be 0.96^8 = 72% residual capacity after 8 years, not 68%.

 

IEEE recommended practice for the battery end of life is when it reaches 80% of it's original capacity. Automotive electrical engineers and (hybrids) industry have been following that practice. Whether that means x number of cycles or x number of years it takes to reach 80% is irreverent. Tesla may be following IEEE recommendation also, which is why their warranty is short.

I was simply asking for Nissan's definition of the Leaf's battery end of life. If Nissan follows IEEE recommended practice, the battery will come to the end of life in 5 years (assumption #1).

However, Nissan has 8 years / 100k miles warranty. The questions is will they replace the battery for free if the assumption #1 is true?

If assumption #1 is false and they considers the battery end of life is 70%, the owners that takes care of the battery (use slow charger or avoid deep discharges) will get screwed because when it reaches 70%, the warranty would have run out. This would sort of encourage the owners to aggressively use the battery pack to get a free pack to run for additional 7 more years.

It is possible that Nissan may go the route of the tire industry with prorated warranty. The battery warranty need more clarification on the condition of the replacement and the cost to the owner.

 

To keep it simple, I got the 4% drop per year simply by dividing 20% loss by 5 years. I got your point. The battery degradation would be faster at the 5th year compared to brand new.

 

The absolute amount (not percentage) of battery capacity loss *decreases* each year. First order kinetics.

As an example, if 4% of capacity is lost per year, then 4% of initial capacity is lost the first year (0.04*1.0), but only 2.8% of the initial capacity amount is lost the ninth year (0.04*.72).

 

How does it really matter to the EV consumers what an obscure (for them) organization recommends that noone knows about ?

Industry standard is when a lot of companies follow the practice and the customers know about it and expect it. When a new industry (BEvs) is starting - the first movers will set the standards. Nissan (and to an extent GM) will have that luxury now.

 

I see your point. BEV appears to be at infancy but it goes back to 1900s.

I am sure the engineers working on the EVs are members of IEEE. It appears they are not following the recommended practice. We'll have to see if the buyers will accept the 30% drop in range as acceptable.

The trade off seems just. 70% capacity / 7 years sounds much better than 80% capacity / 5 years.

 

I don't think engineers get much of a say in the warranty period. They just produce the accelerated degradation results. Actuaries & Marketing folk get a big say.

I'm sure the 8 yrs warranty is because of competitive reasons (w.r.t. Volt). Nissan hasn't offcially announced what actually triggers the warranty yet.

 

I saw the battery life cycle table you posted on the other forum. Gen1 Leaf battery is said to last 1,000 cycles. 100 miles per cycles make it 100k miles for the warranty.

But 7 years put it 143 cycles per year.

 

... and that's only 95% of the entire U.S. daily commuting population ... millions & millions of drivers. Yep too bad. It's not for every one. Neither is a Vette ... or a Harley ... or a smart car ... or a HumVee ... or (insert your 'not for everyone' transportation here) whatever.

As for range? If I were driving 105 miles to work each day where the Leaf couldn't work, first, I'd MOVE. If that obvious thing didn't smack me in the head, I'd add an extra 15%-20% battery capacity. Heck, Prius DIY'ers were adding extra batteries FIVE YEARS ago ... long before Toyota got off the Pot and decided to follow suit (next year). PHEV kit installers were saying screw voided warranty threats ... EV is better. But you are right ... the leaf ... it's not for everyone.

.

 

Or ... add a couple minutes to the trip, and gain another 5 miles of range. JPalmer probably is not a good LEAF candidate, but for most people it is just a question of motivation and a little flexibility.

 

I tried to link my service area, but here are the essentials, I cover about a sixth of the state of Mississippi and 3 counties in Arkansas. So while a typical day is 105 miles, I cannot tell you which direction it would be. My wife, on the other hand, commutes 6 blocks, so we are not moving.

If I commuted, I could recharge at my employer, but my clients typically see me every 3 years, so none have a desire to provide a charger, I won't be back in the life of their copier, unless something goes wrong.

I strongly support the Leaf, if my wife's employer gets her one for her next company car, I will be glad. It just does not work for me.

 

hill, does 95% of the US commuting population have a garage or secure place to charge the Leaf overnight? (or any plug-in for that matter)

How about the millions of cars parked on the street or in car ports. They are in a place to charge up, right?

Good luck convincing condo, apartment, sidewalk, etc, etc... owners to install 240V chargers ... now. And each parking space needs their own dedicated juice for hours probably each night, not like 5 minutes gas pump use then you move your car out of the way.

Think through the realities of charging 95% of every commuting car, every night.

Plug-ins are a great idea and will grow, but it will be moderated by costs and benefits to consumers, producers and all.

Believe me, Toyota is supremely smart. If they thought it was beneficial to flood the market with BEV's now, they'd be doing it.