Nissan Leaf vs Prius

Hey! When did you get up and leave me? Does this mean I can start posting again too? Everybody loves talking to a wall.

 

Not quite...
The prospects for oil off the east coast are as follows:
The "5% confidence" figure is about 500 days worth.
The "95% confidence" estimate is about 100 days worth.

Less than 4 months - woohoo!

We ain't Kuwait. (who, by the way, think peak oil will hit in 2014)

 

Sorry about that. I didn't really leave, I just stood up and yelled a bit.

Tom

 

Really? When/where did I say that? Show me? I'lll wait. Waiting...

So where are these new wind and solar power generating plants on the East Coast? LOL.

As far as more efficient appliances...mainly impacts new housing developments...but still not enough to keeep up with the GROWING population. More people means more demand. The reality is - even if you do have more efficient appliances, power consumption is still GROWING. Fact.

2K sq feet and only $25 of electricity in the Summer and almost "nothing for heat". LOL. Baloney...or, you are like my former college roomate who never turned on anything in our apartment. Not even the heat during cold Boston Winters. Yeah, my electric bill os zero...but then again, my wife left me because she got too cold in the Winter and too hot in the Summer. Nice try, but not buying any of it.

Naive response given the current economic situation that many home owners and builders find themselves in. Won't happen anytime soon, with any numbers.

 

Really? Where did I say that NOTHING will change. Quite the contrary.

You mean like the MASSIVE debt we all read about in California? Sorry, but California Dreamin' is over.

It never ceases to amaze me how uniformed many on the West Coast are about what's going on in the rest of the country. Really, it's just shocking.

We've had "metered" electrical service where I llive for at least 5 years.

Oh, I agree there will be insentives. We have them right now where i live. BUT, as the Oakridge study concludes - human nature (and not necessarily economics) will be a primary force in determining when people plug their cars in. One should NOT assume everyone, or even the majority, will opt to plug in when rates are the lowest. For most people, convenience will be a major consideration as to when they re-charge.

Case in point. There are two gas stations down the street from where i live. One charges (at least) 25 cents more for their regular gas than the other station. For years I expected the more expensive station to close, or change owners and come out with lower prices to compte. But they haven't, and in fact, the gas station with the more expensive prices flourishes. Why would that be, you ask? Simple - the more expensive gas station is much easier to get to, and get in and out. Far more convenient than the cheaper gas station. For many, convenience will be the main driver.

Again, show me where i assumed "nothing would change"? Do people on this web site enjoy misquoting...because that sure seems to be the theme. It really does.

 

Well, the numbers (from this web site as well as independent sites) put the replacement cost between $2500 (first gen Prius) to $4000 for the newer generations of Prii. Please provide a link that shows the prices were initially $5500?

But regardless of whether the decrease is $2K or $3K, the fact remains that these batteries are made from much cheaper material, than is the Lithium battery. So the point is - you can NOT assume that just because there will be more manufacturers making these batteries, that prices will come down. To the contrary, as more EV's come on line using Li batteries, the demand for this rather scarce element will offset manufacturing cost reductions....and prices could actually go up, not down. Count on it.

Oh, I suspect Lithium will still be the primary element/material in 5 years. Even when a suitable chemistry is found (there's been a lot of research, for many years to find one...), it will still take a decade (or more) before all the engineering testing is completed, and deemed ready for mass production. This won't happen within 5 years. I'd bet on that.

Did you know that one of the real problems with Lithium is that it is both extremely flamable and potentially explosive. A LOT of safety engineering had to go into the battery before any car manufacturer is gonna put it into a car that's used to drive your kids to soccer practice. I can just see the headlines the first time a Leaf is re-ended and a fire kills the occupants...doesn't matter (at all) whether the Li battery contributed as an accelerant in the fire...the headlines will tell a different story (much like all the Toyota hype).

I'm sorry to say, but what's coming in the near-future will be more nukes. Countries like France are something like 80% nuclear right now. It's coming. But those plants are extremely expensive to build (and rightfully so)....so while I believe we will have more electrical power plants coming on line in the next few decades, I don't expect my power/electrical rates to decline. Somebody will have to pay for these nukes.

 

Electric vehicles are fine in theory but come up short in practice. The Prius is a far more capable car than the Leaf for about the same price. I would consider an all-electric vehicle under these conditions:
1. Range of at least 400 miles
2. Recharging within 1 hour
3. Cost no more than $25,000
4. Expected durability of car and battery of at least 10 years or 200,000 miles.

I think these conditions can be met within the next ten years and I will then consider an electric car, hopefully made by Toyota.

 

I live in Boston, who said I am from the West coast? I am well aware of what is going in in the West coast AND the East coast.

Your attitude in general sucks, and I am glad there are many more optomistic people in the world, than the likes of your kind.

also, it does not matter when you plug the Leaf in, it does not immediatley start charging, and can be set to charge any time you want. As long as it is plugged in, the charging can be started remotley, via the smartphone application, there is no need to "immediatley" start charging, just because it is plugged in. You don't have to wake up at 1AM to plug it in, to start charging it at 1AM.

Once time of day metering becomes a reality in population dense areas, not only would there be incentive to charge off peak, but there will likely be penalties for charging during peak periods, if there is no need to. You can guess these incentives and penalites will be financial, as that is the bottom line and usually gets through to most people.

 

Really? Then if you are so well informed' about what's going on in the East Coast, then how come you didn't know that metering has been a reality - on parts of the East Coast - for a long time ?

In your opinion my attitude may "suck", but in my engineering world it's call being pragmatic. There are many, many issues that people like you seem to gloss over, or haven't really thought out.

That said, I do wish all the best for EV's, and for many, this will be the right solution. I don't begrudge anyone their right to get the car that's best for them. But I'm not going to accept, as fact, many of the points put out by EV proponents. If those points are valid, then they will hold up under scrutiny, and I make no appologies for NOT swallowing everything said as the truth...because it's not.

True, but then again, you assume everyone will have a smart phone, and get the appropriate app. But speaking more pragmatically - if I wait until rates are down late in the evening, and then it starts to re-charge, is there sufficient time for a full re-charge by the time i leave for work at 6AM? Do I now have to start worrying that I don't delay too long and then not get a full charge? Certainly, the parameters can be managed, but my point is - the last thing many of us need in our already complicated lives is to worry about when, or if I activated my app on my smart phone so that I can get to and from work tomorrow?

 

We do not have time of day metering in Boston yet, where on the east coast is time of day metering being used in residential communities? I am not talking about commercial users, who have been on demand based metering for years.

The Leaf charging application can also be run from a web page, you don't have to have a smart phone. You can also manually set it up in the car, without any PC. The Leaf is a "smart appliance", it can read the SOC (State Of Charge, Mr Engineer), and estimate the time required to recharge it, so you (and your Leaf) will know when you have to start charging to be ready to go at 6AM.

Correction: We do have time of day metering, but there seems to be no compeling reason to use it (currently) https://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/home/rates/3_service.asp

 

NYC has 6 water turbines in the east river and more planned for the Hudson. My building generates it's own power. SO I DO NOT have to pay for electricity. only in the high demand months Do I ever go past what the building produces. It must really burn you that I can turn on my a/c without a blackout that you are so accustomed to. The R Value in my walls is so high that it retains far more heat/cool than any poorly put together particle board house. Does it piss you off that my building of over 1000 uses less electricity from the grid than 3 house by you?

In the winter i pay next to nothing for heat. thanks to waste heat exchange (which only cost $125) it's that way for the whole building. I keep my condo at a comfortable 72F year round.

naive no, Municipalities and HOA's force people to build idiotic things all the time. enforce building codes that only serve as looks ( building looking like the rest) how about codes that actually add real value to a home? There are plenty of green communities popping up around the country. google it, but I have to warn you it might shatter you sad preconceived notion that everyone lives like you and no is addressing the issue.

 

I like the idea of using the tide. However, it's still a speck in terms of powering much of anything. As per the article:

"As the 16-ft.-dia. rotors spin, as close as 6 ft. to the water's surface, they'll provide power to a supermarket and a parking garage"



Is it a start? Yes it is. But this is soooo far away from what I am talking about, it's not even worth discussing further.

Trust me, you paid for that privledge somewhere along the line. Maybe in higher purchase fee...but it's like any developer that advertises free "upgrades"...it's built into the price at some point.

LOL. No, I have no envy. I would sooner kill myself than live in NYC.

I lose power 3-4 times a year. Sometimes for 5 minutes, and occasionally, for upt to 4-6 hours. Never had a regional "black-out". That said, when it becomes enough of an annoyance, I'll go to Home Depot and get a generator for $1500. Better yet, and as per a recent thread on this site, I'll use my prius to power my house, or part of my house, when the power goes out.

Why on God's green eartch would anybody want to live in an apartment with 1,000 people? Sorry, but I enjoy having some land around my house for privacy, recreation and natural beauty.

Don't believe it. What's the name of this Eutopian village/building. If the energy consumption is as low as you describe, no doubt the New Yorker has written an article about it. Give me the name, and I'll do the research. Otherwise, i don't believe any of your hype/numbers. But thanks for trying.

New economics. Pay attention.

 

Metro-Washington-Baltimore. Yes, residential.

That's nifty. But whether it can, or can not perform smart charging is irrelevant to the overall reasons, for someone like me, NOT to get a Leaf.

For me, and with respect to the Leaf, the Prius offers the following advanatages:

(1) Convenience. I'm not tied to re-charging at home. Gas stations are EVERYWHERE, and filling up is NO inconvenience, as I pass no fewer than about 20 stations on my comute to work....and I can re-fuel in 2-3 minutes, and not have to wait 6-8+ hours to re-charge.

(2) Range. I'm not restricted to 100 miles (and that's an optimal number). Wait until your battery degrades in a few years, and the temp is 20 degrees (electric drain to heat the car)...and your range drops to say, 60 miles, or worse.

(3) Known Reliability. I'm pretty confident that my Prius will be very relaiable for many years. But I have no/zero data on the Leaf. It may be very reliable, but then again, as most new/innovative products go - issues may come up. It's an unknown, to say the least. Most of us stay away from buying the first year of any new product just for this very reason, and that would include the Leaf. I'll leave it to the "pioneers" to find out what doesn't work.

(4) Speed. If I want to go 75-85mph on the highway for long periods of time (which I often do headed up I95 to Phily, for example), I can do that with the Prius. Not gonna happen with the Leaf.


There is no savings on total emissions between the Prius and a Leaf powered from a coal burning power plant. So this is a wash, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as energy savings - I've seen all kinds of projections, but the numbers I believe look something like this (approximately): $0.07-$0.10/mile for the Prius and between $0.03-$0.07/mile for EV. For me, that equates to about a $600-$800 savings in energy consumption. Significant, but not enough of a savings (for me) to justify an EV (at this point).


By the way, and except for the expected price, the vehicle that's closer to what I would want is the Volt. I like the idea of having a small (gas) engine used to re-charge the battery when needed. For me, it does NOT have to be all electric, all the time. If I can operate 75% of the time in the electric mode, but have the assurance of gas re-charging on board, then that works for me. Now, if they can only get the price down, I think they would have a winner.

 

Bigdog, I must admit you are a MASTER at moving the goalposts

 

The Volt, you must be kidding. It is going to perform equally poorly as a gasoline powered car, and an EV. The Prius is a far better hybrid, and with the Volts limited range (<40 miles), you are better off with a Prius, in reality. The Leaf is a TRUE real, EV, the first commercially available (not counting Tesla, as not many will commute in a $110K sports car, the others so far are mostly golf carts, so also not viable)


and, stay on topic.

 

That's right, I did pay for it, but unlike you I am not taxing the "over burdened ready to collapse power grid" and I am pretty much immune to any price fluctuations.

And I would rather kill myself than live in a town that looses power more than a third world country.

I have 85 acres of park land very close by so I can enjoy nature's scenery and I get to be civilized and have power too, what a combo. I have privacy too it's called drapes, blinds and other window dressings, also Living on the 35 floor helps with prying eyes.

I'm not giving you my address, but if you want to find out google it, it's not that hard. there are several silver LEED residential buildings that have been built in nyc. go ahead type it in. I did and my building is there along with several others. Where do you live, besides this 2k+ mile east coast?

 

Example?

 

...and we are happy for you. But your unique situation does nothing to ameliorate the current power situation. So it adds nothing to the discussion, regarding the additional strain that 100's of thousands, or millions of Leaf's, will put on the aging power grid and power plants along the East Coast. After all, that's what we are talking about...and not that you heat your place "for nearly nothing".

When you find such a "third world country", please let me know. In the meantime, I will enjoy the low crime rate, low taxes and my unique ability to go sailing from my back yard. Enjoy NYC.

I'm sure you do. But there is no substitute for having your own land (and in my case, water) right out your back door. No driving necessary.

...and I never asked for your address. I asked for the name of the Eutopian building you speak of. With over a 1,000 units, or residents in your building, one would be hard pressed to figure out which one was your's...even if one was so inclind to do so, which I'm not.

By the way, I assume you are aware that a "silver" rating is the lowest rating for LEED? Gold and Platinum are better yet. Soooooooooooooo, if you spend "almost nothing" on heating costs, one can only imagine what gold or platinum must be like? I guess we could assume that gold and platinum gives you the ability to sell back your excess energy, as you certainly don't consume any? Right?

 

If off topic, then why did you respond? LOL.

Did I say the Volt was the perfedct car? Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said it's getting closer to what I would want. For now, I chose the Prius, in part, because of the lower price.

On one side of the equation we have all gas powered cars. On the other side, we have all electric cars. Somehwere in the middle, we have hybrid-like cars that combine both electric with gas power. The Prius is more gas powered than electric, while the volt is more electric, than gas powered (ie 40 mile range on all electric propulsion).

If I had to guess what the typical consumer, who's in the market for one of the aformenetioned, my guess is that most do NOT want to give up the convenience and security of having a gas powered engine - an engine that will either directly power the car, as with the Prius, or, to simply be used to re-charge the battery, as with the Volt. While the all electric option will work for some, I suspect it will be many years before people byepass the hybrid approach, in favor of all electric. Exactly where in the middle most people feel comfortable, will be fought out in the market place. That's my point...and oh, and it is "on topic".

 

It really doesn't matter if the Volt is "better", as I fully expect GM to produce very few Volts, not have any customers for them, or for them to be a disaster, shortly after that they will declare "no one wants these", setup the car crusher and crush them all.

Just like last time.

Darell's Electric Vehicle Page click on "EV1" then "Crushed"

you would have to be nuts to trust GM, they have time and time again shown their lack of vision, and amazing abillity to always make the wrong decision, on just about everything.

I am ready, and willing to give up my gas car, I don't really need it. I see no point in going to another hybrid (subpar at best, and not even as good as my 2001 Prius), I have been driving Prii for the last 10 years, it's time to go all electric.