Nissan EV is about to be officially announced!

Electric me,

I don't think generalizations like the one you made are helpful. The US is a lot of people, let alone the world. If 5% of car purchasers find this car is what they want, it will be a runaway smash hit.

That said, I *suspect* that the largest market for EV will be 50 mile range cars. Urban commuters who charge up at work if needed. The excess range will be too expensive to not use everyday.

 

Well I'm sure they thought of my questions, they are basic. But 100 mile range and what number of recharge stations? Define "significant part" of folks.

I'm sure, just from hanging around this forum that there is a market for this automobile but as it is presented now, and with the infrastructure supporting it, or lack of infrastructure, I still would say it's a ways from becoming "mainstream".

Some people with curiosity and money to burn will buy them. But it's IMO it's still a long way from being a product that can be mainstream. It took Prius almost a decade to reach mainstream levels of ownership and sales and that's for a vehicle that is functionally supported by the infrastructure in place, which is nation wide gas stations.

Right now, you'd be limited to 100 mile range, hoping for convienent placement of a recharging station and/or looking at having the resources, and space to buy your own recharging unit. That doesn't spell "mainstream" to me.

It's a first step, I'd be happy to be wrong. I'm just not getting too excited yet or expecting to see a whole lot of them on the road. They tested them here in Oregon and I never saw one, and I am not aware of any recharging centers.

 

It's just opinion. And in my defense I don't think my original post was a "generalization". I very specificly outlined what I thought point by point would need to happen to make it a viable mainstream product. That's pretty specific.

I know people feel pretty passionate about this idea if it is one you support. I just think we are at the genesis of a product and concept. It shows gain that Nissan is even introducing an EV for sale period.

The problem is we are in a "Prius Chat" forum. With most of this audience you don't have to go too far to convince them an Electric Car is the best thing since sliced bread...how's that for cliche? I'm just being honest about what my opinion is concerning reaching a mainstream level of sales and ownership and bottom line to me, the infrastructure to support a wide range of EV's doesn't exist in most locations right now.

How quickly it could or might, is totally up for debate.

 

Somehow, I can almost agree with both of you. While I agree that 100 miles is a great range and will accomodate nearly everyone's regular commute, it still is "just" an electric car with a very, very long cord. It is not and cannot be seen as a mainstream automobile for America.

In my case: I could use this car many days, because my average daily driving distance is around 30 miles. Unfortunately, I travel very frequently for business. These trips range from 80 miles RT to 400 miles one-way. An 80-mile round trip to see a client is something I would muster only with a fully-charged EV. The other trips just couldn't be justified: I couldn't afford to drive a route designed to hit specialty 440V stations. Even if they were perfectly spaced on a 300-mile one-way trip, I doubt I could make only two stops, as I'd be completely "dry" upon arrival. Further, the two stops would at one hour to my trip. More likely, though, I'd have three 28-minute stops to go 300 miles, then four to accomplish the return (I'd have to recharge before leaving), and then I'd arrive empty. I can't afford two cars just for myself (we need a larger vehicle for the family), so an EV just doesn't make sense for me, unless the range goes up to 200 miles.

Hmmm. The EV-1 had a range of _____ miles.

 

Someone who's starving doesn't mind potatoes, even everyday.
If one presumes cheep fossil fuel is somehow continuing on & on, in perpetutiy, then "... isn't mainstream" is a viable statement. However, even many of the geologists who work in the industry ... and the industry itself, acknowledge that worldwide oil production has peaked. Seen any Alaska oil production charts lately?

So EV's will be coming into their own shortly, "as-is". The auto industry reads the fuel/production charts too. The fact that TODAY is a bad day to buy an EV (if they were available w/ 100 mile range and reasonably priced) is NOT what the industry is looking at. A paradigm shift in transportation is happening, and it must. Thank goodness the auto industry is finally getting away from its horrible short-sightedness ... where they think things like, "... first they gotta go 300 miles and recharge in a handfull of minutes". Nope. As fossel fuel dwindles, 100 mile EV's will be a godsend.

.

 

I lost the link to it, but I read a really good article that said Nissan was planning a full-on assault on the EV and hybrid market, with the development of about five different vehicles, all planned for market. Hmmm. I'll see if I can find the link.

Speaking of the Volt, I saw two GM commercials on television last night that said "Volt. Coming in 2010." I'm not sure what that's all about, but it was interesting to see that.

 

Indyking I'm not an opponent of an EV vehicle. Infact, I'd consider myself a proponent of the idea. As I have given Toyota kudos for working to mainstream hybrid sales, I would also give Nissan kudos if they champion and can create a viable market for a full EV. My opinion is that it's going to be at least as difficult to do (Probably more difficult) for Nissan with a full EV as it has been for Toyota with a Hybrid.

Toyota had at least two things for sure on their side with The Prius. #1, vehicle operation could be maintained by fueling up at ICE supported gas stations, no change in infrastructure needed.

#2, and no less important, they created a good product that offered most people comparible performance to what expectation based on previous ICE ownership provided.

#1 does not exist for Nissan at this point. #2 is unknown.

By mainstream, I mean an automobile that reaches the point Prius is now entering. That is a car offered as an alternative but as an alternative viable to be a person, or families primary vehicle. I'm not talking about a "commute to work only", or 2nd car, grocery getter, conversation starter. I'm talking about what for the majority of people who can afford basicly to own and maintain 1 car, a car capable of use daily as a work commute, grocery getter and weekend get-away. Prius has battled to gain that reputation, it's a big part of the 3rd Generations appeal.

I don't mean to upset those eagerly awaiting the technology and acceptance of EV vehicles but realisticly for most people, many living in apartments or condos, an EV capable of 100 mile range and needing a prohibitive amount of time to recharge, with a scarcity of public charging options will not even be a blip on the radar as a consideration as a main or primary vehicle.

First adopters will be those that can accept the EV as a secondary automobile, afford to have a secondary automobile and probably can afford to install a personal charging station in their obviously garage equipped home. This initial market will not be of mainstream numbers.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe circumstance and reality will drasticly change. Maybe foreign conflict will immediately make fossil fuel an near impossibility, inwhich alternative technologies will boom. Seperately a lot depends on how quickly Nissan could create a network of charging stations.

In anycase, I welcome the Nissan EV, whatever incarnation it appears in. I'm sure if I stay active within Prius Chat, I will be updated as to it's acceptance.

It's always "baby steps" when it comes to mainstream marketing. I feel like a lot of alternative automobile enthusiasts would like to wake up tomorrow with the majority of cars on the road being EV. Ideally, someday I'd like to see that too, but we won't reach it overnight. I'm going on just the same limited information everyone is going on, and as presented I don't see the Nissan EV as a "mainstream" product, it is heartening that it is an EV being manufactured, sold and supported by a mainstream automobile manufacturer.

 

Ahh...dwindling availability of fossil fuels for whatever reason will surely help EV and alternative energy solutions as a whole. I agree. I make no presumption that fossil fuels continue on forever.

However, "Someone who is starving doesn't mind potatoes even everyday" isn't where we are at yet. Even in recession, take a look outside. The majority of people are still driving ICE SUV's and Mini-Vans and large Trucks. Yes, this could change and maybe more rapidly than most people think, but it won't change rapidly if circumstance doesn't force it.

My hope, is that as fossil fuels dwindle or if political circumstance makes supporting our fossil fuel dependancy impossible we have advanced technologies enough to transition with as little pain as possible. Yes, if gas is $10.00 a gallon, most people would welcome 100 mile ranges and dealing with recharging. But that isn't the reality and I don't really think anyone can put a solid timeline on anything close to when and if circumstance would reach that point.

I am generalizing here, but IMO humanity tends to consume as much as possible until the product is no longer viable. Remember the Buffalo?

I wish I could say, The Nissan product sounds perfect. I wish I could say, I'm buying one ASAP and it makes sense for almost everyone to do so, but realisticly is that true? Not for most.

 

Driving the Future: Nissan's All New Electric Vehicle | Car News Blog at Motor Trend

"Acceleration is surprisingly brisk; the 80 kW electric motor doles out all of its 207 lb ft of torque in less than 100 milleseconds once you hit the throttle, providing the sensation of instant response. Nissan engineers claim it accelerates better than an Infiniti G35 by leaving the line quicker and getting up to speed more smoothly. Its top speed of only 87 mph is quite a bit off the pace of the G. On the other hand, it’s much quieter than that car or any for that matter. The electric motor and single speed gearbox mean it’s nothing but quiet thrust when you put your foot down. The only sounds come from the tires as they hum over the pavement and the greenhouse as the wind rushes over and across it."

The G35 goes from 0-60 in under 6 seconds!

I'm not really big on fast cars even though I always get on the left lane ASAP, but if anyone picks on you for buying a Nissan EV, just tell them the acceleration it gets. That should shut 'em up...something you're unable to do with the Prius.

 

You are correct in most respects, I believe, but I don't know that it has much bearing on whether the Nissan EV is appropriately aimed.

It appears they are trying to build their own Prius. Nissan has publicly stated they want the design to be distinctive so that everyone who sees it says -- Oh yeah! The Electric Car! Pretty much what the Prius has become for hybrids.

Great concept, but will it work if the car really is "only" a commuter car? Perhaps?! I know it is asking a lot, but being able to move the EV range from 100 to 200 REALLY changes the ballgame. Moving it from 50 to 100 doesn't seem to matter all that much -- at least as far as I am concerned.

The "mainstream" appeal is not to have a car that looks like all others but performs in the same general fashion as the popular sellers. Will this car really compete with the Corolla? The Prius? How about the Altima -- or even the Fit? Until there is reliable infrastructure for high-capacity electric supply, the battle for a mainstream EV is going to be up hill.

I'm hoping it survives and even thrives, but I still think the market is too limited for a 5-passenger car to have "only" a 100-mile range.

 

As an owner of an EV (ZENN) with a range of maybe 30 miles, I know the practicality of this vehicle. I drive this car every day and the most of my cars since most of my trips are short trips.

But as my ICE cars are not really practical for short trips (under five miles), my EV is not practical for trips over 15 miles.

The real issue is that it takes decades to perfect a new technology and EVs are a new technology in a real sense. In a few decades, oil may be scarce or unavailable. We must walk before we can run. The real value of these new cars is not that they will be perfect for all, it is that they will be the basis for developing the cars which will be useful for all. Our contribution by supporting them, if they work for us, is that this is our way of helping future generations to have the cars which they will need.

What is wrong with that?

Allan

 

THE EVs ARE COMING! :rockon:
THE EVs ARE COMING! :cheer2:

Nissan is but one of the many auto makers that are poised to launch EVs
by 2012. Here is short, admittedly unscientific and incomplete list of other
offerings that with any luck will be competing for consumers dollars with
Nissan, Tesla, and maybe even the Volt :

Test Ride: Even in New York, the Aptera Stops Traffic | Autopia | Wired.com

Wheego Whips Up A $19K EV | Autopia | Wired.com

Hyundai hybrid may hit roads in 2nd half

YouTube - HD: Test/Review of the Think City electric car / EV

Updated: Plans for Light-Duty Electric Pickup Truck Announced - PickupTrucks.com News

Electric thrills - The Globe and Mail

VW to reveal electric car | Auto Express News | News | Auto Express

PHOTOS: Mile’s Coda Unveils $45K Electric Sedan for 2010

Magna Brings Canada Into the EV Game | Autopia | Wired.com

New York 2009: Mitsubishi confirms i-MiEV will come to U.S. — Autoblog Green

Let the games begin.

 

Let's look at this another way. For an EV to become mainstream it has to meet the driver's expectations of "a car". How often do you want to stop & fill up? Recharging the EV needs to be done along with something else. Over a fixed route recharging while working or while at home is OK. "On the road" if a full charge can't be done in ~5 minutes it isn't convenient unless done while eating or at a destination.

I propose this 100 mile EV simulation. Pump only 2 gallons of gas into the Prius. Using a trip odo drive only 100 miles. Buy 2 gallons of gas & sit at the station (not the pump) for however long the EV is going to take to charge. I suspect that a 100 mile range will be acceptable to some at an attractive price point but "most" will want something closer to 300 miles for the car to be considered "practical".

Now, as for the EV-1's range...that number's somewhere...

 

Nissan is Renault and Renault is not as reliable as nissan was, so I'm quite not sure about this assesment...
This particular car is based on the Renault clio/modus platform

 

I have to say that I'm a little bit disappointed with the anti-EV atmosphere on here of all places. If someone wants to buy an EV, I think it should be welcomed and encouraged...just like I'm happy to see the Prius do well. Hybrid and EV are technologies that the oil company executives, Dick Cheney, and Iran's leader don't like. So what if it's not for you. Do you like it when Prius haters express their redundant opinions? Go back to the Prius forum unless you have something informative to share. If the first Prius owners didn't exist, the 2010 model wouldn't either and the EV would probably be many more years away. I think some of you just don't want to have buyer's remorse. Boo hoo. Quit bashing the 100 mile range already. I get it. It's beneath you.

 

Really the question here is price. If they can hit $25,000-$30,000 as claimed, they should be able to sell loads. If this comes in at the M1EV or R1E price, it will have no more impact than either of them. Mitsubishi and Subaru are not idiots, so I wonder what Nissan has that they don't. I don't think the answer is deep pockets.

I quite like the design of Nissans. The Cube, Murano, Dualis (Qashqai), and March even are all pretty cool. The March in Japan comes in some really funky colours.

 

Electric Me said

Perhaps I don't know what mainstream means ?

How many families have two cars ? Are they mainstream ?
How many people live and work within a 30 mile radius ? Are they mainstream ?

Although it has not been discussed in this thread, I do think that a shift in habits is going to have to occur in US driving culture -- from buying a vehicle that supports 100% of personal transport requirements, to buying a vehicle that meets 95% of transport requirements, and covering the other 5% with public transport or rentals. That mindset will become more common as fuel becomes more expensive,and along with a charging infrastructure at the workplace, is going to let many, many people choose 50 mile range EV cars.

I am an early example, albeit due to environmentalism and not out of money considerations. My work is 100 miles away, so I use public transport when it is running, or our Prius if I work on the weekend. My wife drives the Prius most days into the nearby city on errands, taking the kids places, and for shopping and activities. Round trips are 10 - 30 miles. Heavy cargo trips to Lowes are covered by our 13 y/o hatchback with rails on the roof, or by renting a pickup truck from Uhaul for about $40/day.

Of total miles, about half of my family's are covered by public transport, and half by the Prius. The hatchback and rentals make up just a few percent of our miles. A PHEV or EV could replace the Prius easily. We live in a suburb near a medium size city. How mainstream is that ?