NexPower V3 hybrid battery unveil - Sodium-ion battery

For the most part, I agree Jack has gone above and beyond for his customers.

The only exception I've seen is the one guy who bought a $5000 pack, and then when the pack failed Jack told him "I can't afford to refund your pack right now". However, IIRC Jack did offer to send customer a V2.5 pack ASAP, or a V3 pack upon release, so that's a great attempt to resolve an unpleasant customer experience. I appreciate Jack's honesty to that customer; if you don't have the money, it's not like you can conjure it out of thin air.

But therein lies the problem: at some point Jack's RMA rate could reach a point where maintaining the project is impossible from a purely financial aspect. I don't doubt Jack's passion for having happy customers even one bit. What I do doubt is their tech sinking their profit margin to zero (or negative), in which case it's game over.

Again I agree that Jack's customers are generally well take care of. My concern then is what happens when the RMA cost exceeds the otherwise bottom line.

I don't think I meet these requirements, simply because I don't attack his business practices... but rather his technology portfolio.

I don't think @Xeico's statement is vindictive. @Xeico is pragmatically wondering if this unproven technology will hold up long term. To me, their concerns are well warranted, given NexPower's poor track record and also the unproven Na-ion technology they've just announced today.

To be very clear, @Xeico's question "what happens if tech fails" isn't a statement of fact, and therefore your assertion that it is 'false' is unfounded. It's a good faith question, and a good one at that.

My counter is that I don't think you understand how pragmatic scientific minds think.

 

You misunderstood me. I'm not saying anything about how Jack works with clients.
I mean, if the batteries start to fail, the V3 will collapse like a house of cards and it will cost Jack too much.
I remember Jack saying that V2 with BMS greatly harmed the company financially.

"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong."

 

-Yawns

Sheeshh this battle again...zzz...zz..z

This is getting old already and it aint even started....

That hateraid tastes good or wha?

Dont choke on it.

Before someone assumes they are being addressed or are so narcissistic, relax you are not important or relevant to this.

V3 GT baby baby...salty isnt it?

 

I agree: yawn. Let's talk about the product...

...have any thoughts on the standard 'non-GT V3' product's use case?

 

To be very clear, the statement I was replying to as false was the very first sentence:

 

I suspect @Xeico was referring to the fact that the V3 hardware is a complete redesign, hence there's zero backwards compatibility with existing V1.x & V2.x packs. So then if we can agree the existing V1.x & V2.x products were defective by design, then the only solution Jack could offer to his existing customers is a new V3 pack; the entire old (failing) pack is useless.

Further, I suspect @Xeico was thinking the V3 design might have a similar upgrade path as the V2.5 variant offered to existing V2.x & V1.x customers.

So then there's at least one possible explanation behind @Xeico's statement. I'll let them clarify if I misinterpreted their statement.

 

Hello Prius Chat members. I am a beta tester for the V3 battery pack. I have had the V3 Sodium system in my 2015 Prius 4, since the end of February. Actual milage is just over 15,000 miles of mixed highway, city, mountain, and flatland. My Prius has 230k on the odometer and is maintained mostly by me. Tires are the Michelin Defender T+H 36psi front and 34psi rear.
I removed the V2.5 pack, installing the V3 was super easy. The positive and negative, the ecu connections, and the sister connection on module 5, and temperature sensors and that's it!!!
My average mileage was 48.5mpg. This sodium system seems to recharge faster and maintain a high charge. On a number of occasions my battery indicator shows bar 7, that happened so rarely on the Nimh I was surprised when it did. The V2.5 it didn't happen very often either. The Veepeak OMDII shows in pack temperatures are very even, usually in the mid 90'sF, slightly over 100*F if my car sits in the sun.
The milliohms readings are 19-22 average is 20. The outside temperature here is right at 100*F too.
Overall impressions are this is an amazing replacement battery system. Super easy for anyone to install, with basic automotive skills. The support from Jack is great! The price is terrific and the environmental impact is IMO far superior to the Lipo or Nimh batteries. I'm extremely pleased with V3 battery. The lifespan is projected to be 10 years, could outlive me. This is a define upgrade to your hybrid vehicle. Connect with me via Priuschat thanks, Doug

 

<Disclosure: I have slightly reordered complete sentences in the quotes below. My intent isn't to change OP's meaning, but rather to group similar concepts. If there's any doubt, please refer to OP's original message in post#27 for the original quote>

Thank you for sharing your V3 pack experience. Anecdotal reports from boots on the ground are always good datapoints.
Can you describe your driving habits?
What kind of driver would you say you are? Postal worker?

Yes, I agree the base V3 hardware looks very easy to install. Certainly much easier than the previous version.
This might be a selling point worth mentioning in Jack's "differences between non-GT & GT V3 packs.

I suspect this is due to the drastically different charge/discharge curves. LFP & NiMH have a basically flat voltage profile across the middle portion of their SoC, whereas Na-ion cells are substantially more linear. If the man-in-the-middle circuit board shown in Jack's release video doesn't drastically modify the actual blade voltages, then the Toyota BSU still sees this large voltage ramp. In that case, the BSU will tend to think the batteries have reached full charge sooner than they actually have. Not an issue, per se, but it could reduce the pack's actual maximum SoC value (e.g. to 80%). You wouldn't have seen this behavior with V2.5 (or previous) because LFP also has a flat discharge curve.

Whether or not these readings are accurate depends on what Jack's man-in-the-middle circuit board is doing. If it's just averaging out voltages (like the Signal Soother did), then the cell resistance measurements will be accurate (unless a cell has failed). However, if it's remapping the voltage output (to 'flatten' Na-ion's linear discharge curve), then the resistance measurements might not be accurate.

However, assuming there are QTY70 cells in series (5 cells per tap), your observed milliOhm readings could be correct (i.e. in Jack's video one of the test cells has 3.x mOhm written on the cylinder wall). I'll know for certain once I review the man-in-the-middle circuitry.

Certainly a comfortable temperature range. Burying hybrid packs deep in the car certainly helps reduce pack soaking in hot climates.

Thanks for the report!

I certainly agree based on what I've heard from several customers.

I, too, am amazed at the price. If this pack works long term and doesn't have any safety issues (TBD), I think Jack has a hit product. IMO, it's too early to know for sure whether this new technology will meet the estimated 10 year lifespan (whose estimate is this?). But yeah nobody knows right now.

 

I’m no postal or delivery driver. I’m semi retired, but I do drive 25k to 30k a year in an older Prius. I drive 67mph on the highway for my normal trips, best mpg in my car. Over 70mph the mpg are dramatically reduced. Tesla, VW, and several other manufacturers are currently in production or testing the Sodium batteries. I’m no expert in anything automotive, just an old guy driving normally. My plan on driving this car, run it until it’s done. The price of new or used vehicles scares my budget. I see many older Prius vehicles on the road, this system has great potential.

 

Preorders just now opened up for their standard Sodium-Ion: Toyota hybrid battery upgrade - NexPower Energy
Free install in my local area if you purchase with the link in this comment. And unlimited tech support world-wide too.

 

This raises a few more questions. So if non-GT is better for campers and things like that, presumably it has a larger capacity than GT, correct? But then he says GT is better for people with a lead foot, or taxis, or delivery drivers, etc... presumably from allowing higher peak amp draw? Really need some clarification on total pack capacity.

And then what about the serviceability of non-GT, it seems like it would be an RMA nightmare when failures happened (which they will, as is the nature of selling a battery product like this to the public).

Is GT better for heavier duty use, in terms of lifespan then? And it's more serviceable? And it's only slightly more expensive? Am I missing something here?

If GT is better for heavy use, then how do you handle warranty claims if someone who does something like Doordash buys a non-GT to save a few bucks and has a failure? Which is the correct option if you live in a mountainous area with lots of elevation climbs and long descents?

This is all before we even get into the BMS question, which I await independent analysis from someone (most likely @mudder it's sounding like)

 

Probably the best way to explain his business is that he's constantly iterating / improving the design based on even minor issues that come up with the 4K packs on the road right now.

The V3 design was back when he was using super beat up and ready to break down Prius as test vehicles because that was the type of vehicle that was coming in as far as warranty claims go.

Then when he finally fixed that and got 8 months and eventually 80 test packs on the road without any of the previous issues, he moved on to turning the V3 strengths into a pack with more power and performance, the GT pack which has existed for less time and is still being tested prior to final production which is scheduled later on than standard V3.

In other words, if you own a really old crappy Prius you don't take care of and want to fix it and forget you want to buy the V3... But if you're a gear head and are constantly working on your car and trying to create every possible improvement, then wait a little longer and buy a V3 GT when it comes out.

 

Hello. Where is this local area and who is doing the free install?

 

wouldn't life be easier if everyone put their town/city in their info

 

@Xterra72

He is not local to you but I am in the high desert.

 

Pacifc Northwest and I'm a Nexpowerenergy Certified Installer

 

I watched the video and realized that Jack doesn’t understand anything about how hybrids work.
1) The volume of the cells has practically NO INFLUENCE on fuel economy.
What he says is that the batteries have a capacity of 10Ah and this will help in saving money is nonsense!
In all new hybrid cars, batteries come with cells from 3.5 Ah to 6.5 Ah.
Large capacity does NOT make sense, since this is not a plug-in hybrid, almost all the energy in the battery comes from the generation of the internal combustion engine. Yes, there is recuperation when braking or descending a mountain, but it’s worth considering that you first need to climb a mountain by spending a certain amount of fuel; with a larger capacity, you also carry more weight.
2) A complete discharge of the battery under normal conditions is unlikely, unless, of course, you left the car for a couple of months. Just put the car in neutral, the HVB will discharge to a value just below 200V, then a “triangle of death” will appear and the car will stop discharging the HVB. Toyota's development department is no fool.
And the fact that lithium dies from overdischarge is well known to everyone and this is Jack’s fault, with the lack of cell control.
3) A man with a staff of 1 taxi driver-engineer and 1 young guy (trainee?), says that he spent MILLIONS? for development? Timecode 10:46
At the same time, they print on a mid-level hobby 3D printer and use hobby chargers. Well that's it...

This is just crazy.

 

So...more Ah is not better than less Ah?

More Ah means more battery run time which means fewer times to charge it back up.

Also the Nexcell pack weighs less than OEM.

 

Whatever suckers and losers and dog face pony soldiers. Silicon carbide is on the way, watch it overtake the car battery world. SiC 2025, now the wine is taking over.